Bay 12 Games Forum

Cult appears as a possible alignment in the OP.

The only thing that currently has me thinking it may not be in the game is that Esteemed Egan_BW and Esteemed Imp have not mentioned it as part of the rainbow in their role, but unless either of them can confirm they have an exhaustive list of alignments in the game, that tells us nothing.

@Esteemed webadict

That’s acceptable. I currently don’t really have any reason to believe you’re scum, but the aforementioned disagreement means I also currently don’t think you’re right, but we’ll see what you have to say.

I’m thinking the best course of action is to take a step back. We’re barely 24 hours into the 72 allotted. Things can, and probably will change in the remaining time.

Do the two girls come with the cup?

4,961 irradiated haggis.

Esteemed webadict

... Okay, hey guys,  I, fortunately or unfortunately, have the world's strongest ability.  I require everyone to make a vote on who to use this on because the ability is too strong to remain in my possession, lest the Mafia or other nefarious persons pilfer this.

I will thusly claim.

I can remove the role of another player once per game.

Yes, this is permanent.  Yes, this is busted.  No, I couldn't not claim it.  No, I can't save it for later.

Please pick who should be the target, because they will be effectively removed from the Night game.

I would volunteer myself for this given my distaste of the night game and my current predicament vis-à-vis post restrictions, but my role has some utility to the rest of the town (though on the flip side, could be a detriment depending on certain choices made) so I would prefer someone else be chosen. However, if it comes down to it, and you can't make a decision, sure, hit me with it.

Regardless, I don't want to be responsible for someone else losing interest in the game while still being in it, so I respectfully abstain.

@Crystal, just an fyi, that is more of a rephrasing of content that might be called Activelurking.  It doesn't have any of your own remarks or insights, so it might be better to put your thoughts on whether that might be true or not and how this affects your view on the players or the game!

Here, let me show you.

Personally, I would be okay if we voted out Max.  I think his Miller claim and his unkillable claim in a game with potentially multiple factions is far more likely to be a scumtrait than not, and I also dislike his attack on Imp.

This reiterates pieces Max did (claimed Miller and unkillable and voted Imp), but I put my insights in (these feel quite likely to be traits a scum player might have).  Now you try!

Aw come on, I just spent ages pushing at Esteemed BlackHeartKabal for conflating powers/actions with alignment, don't you do it, too.

I suppose you're doing it with claimed actions rather than publicly announced ones, so I'll take that and run with it.

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Esteemed Lenglon

hector13: Who here would submit a Shakeragian role? Who here would not submit a Shakeragian role?

It doesn't matter who would submit that type of role, what would matter is how Most Esteemed FallacyofUrist would interpret such a submission.

Is there any reason your list of questions is ordered the way it is? The list is not ordered the way it is in the OP, nor is it alphabetical.

Quote from: BlackHeartKabal on December 15, 2023, 05:47:29 am

To your response to mine - why kill every night, if given the opportunity? Is that not disadvantageous?

A townie's kill action is automatically more accurate and informative than the lynch because they can auto-clear themselves and they decide who to shoot on their own. So, no, it is explicitly not disadvantageous. It is optimal to use all your bullets. The only reason to hold fire night one is that day 1 info sucks.

I disagree with the idea that a townie can clear themselves with a kill, but I think you answered a question on it later? If not one will most assuredly will follow...

Imp: the auto-clear I'm referencing is the simple fact that you know your own alignment. A townie knows that they are themselves a townie, and will not shòot themselves. The lynch can hit anyone at all. a random-lynch is therefore less accurate than a random-shot.

Oh you mean auto-clear in that they clear themselves, rather than they are cleared automatically to other players, right right right, I get it.

BHK: You pulled a 180 on voting Jim awful fast there, what specifically changed your mind?

With you on this one.

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Esteemed BlackHeartKabal

hector13: What, to you, is the purpose of asking questions like this?

If the question is specifically about the one you asked me, to look busy. It doesn't offer anything from which to generate content beyond the ire of the answerer, which is NAI.

If it is in reference to your other questions, it's RVS, and the purpose of that is to get out of it as quickly as possible. What questions that you just asked do you think does the best job of that?

Huh. Hector, are you obligated to speak this way by your role?

I'm not obligated to, no, but I receive particular benefits for doing so.

It's something to keep an eye on, I'm sure.

Quote from: webadict on December 15, 2023, 05:49:55 am

So, BHK:  Would you vote Jim Groovester right now?

I don't see a reason why. Here's the possibilities -
If Jim is scum, it wouldn't make sense for them to possess an ability that actively punishes voting them up - which is, to say, if Jim were scum, they would not have that ability.

If Jim is town, it makes no sense to vote them up. If we wanted to kill them either way, we could just let scum do the job, which they will, due to their powerful ability. Because Jim, following the above, isn't scum, then the scum would undoubtedly kill them at earliest nightly convenience following this logic, because it would be unsafe for the scum team to do so by vote.

If Jim is a third party, then they, for the same reason that they likely aren't scum, are also unlikely to be an SK. Because they possess the ability that they do and, in this example, are not scum, the scum would either, again, eliminate Jim at soonest possible convenience, or try to keep them alive as long as possible to coerce them into supporting a scum victory later on. In the case of the former, the problem is solved without effort on our end. In the case of the latter, we can determine a target day or playercount to vote up Jim.

If Jim is specifically a survivor, the problem is self-solving after a certain day, as per the game rules.

Now, I don't like this, for a number of reasons, most prominent of which is that you seem to think that powers/actions are alignment indicative, and you appear to be using that as the basis for clearing Esteemed Jim Groovester as town/not mafia/not hostile third-party.

This doesn't make you mafia, but it does make you notable. What do you think you should do to assuage my concerns?

Quote from: Lenglon on December 15, 2023, 08:44:21 am

BHK: your logic regarding Jim is entirely based on scum not being canidates for the revealed ability. I very strongly disagree with that. It is completely plausible for scum to have the ability revealed. If Jim is scum, SOMEONE is going to have to take that daykill to the face eventually. If Jim is town, we should enable Jim to use his daykill freely, for the same reason townies should use all their bullets. Why is it so important to you to protect yourself over proactively probing for scum? I've already voted Jim, though admittedly mostly as a gesture and to prove a point. If the time comes where we become certain that Jim is scum, would you refuse to vote him? Your current attitude seems to prioritize yourself over the Town.

I don't see it this way. It would be incredibly and fundamentally bizarre for scum in particular to have an ability that lets them kill someone for voting them. It is a very town-coded ability, like protection. If we were certain that Jim were scum, of course I'd vote for him - but his specific ability to daykill someone voting for him isn't a very scummy ability.

This gets more into the idea that actions/powers are alignment indicative. There are many roles that can kill as town, like Vigilantes and Paranoid Gun Owners, and there is absolutely no reason for mafia to not be able to have a protection ability in light of those town-aligned powers.

Equally so, scum being able to kill someone voting them is a double-edged sword. Currently there are 18 players in the game, it thus takes 10 players to hammer. If scum were to kill a player voting for them in this situation, it reduces the number to hammer to 9, in addition to the renewed focus on their wagon. It offers a huge amount of utility to scum, allowing them to change focus from certain wagons, to reducing the number it takes to hammer anyone else, and probably other things I've not thought of yet.

Can you see why I think it looks like you're trying to clear Esteemed Jim Groovester, and why I think that's a suspicious thing to be doing at this point?

Quote from: EuchreJack on December 15, 2023, 09:19:22 am

How many Mafia games have you played?

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

No Lynch on Day 1 is dubious at best in most games, and incredibly stupid with this many players.

Oh. Oh.
I was not suggesting a no-lynch. Now I realize what we mean regarding the lynch, daykills, and Jim - I don't know why I didn't pick up on that earlier.

Would you care to share with the rest of the class? I'm not sure how you got from "he is town" to "let's vote him", certainly not from what you responded to here.

Quote from: ToonyMan on December 15, 2023, 09:25:50 am

Yeah, I'm a miller. I don't inspect as town. But I am.

@BlackHeartKabal:
There are a lot of players. I expect a lot of things will be ignored or missed. I think it's important to keep things as understandable as possible to avoid players masking themselves in pointless banter or being ignored. I highly doubt every player here will be scrutinized fairly on the same level.

ToonyMan: I agree with you, regarding player size and scrutiny. Now, onto your miller claim - there's, of course, reasonable scrutiny there to begin with. How do we know that the revelations of the first day haven't emboldened you to claim something that would clear you from later investigation? It would be a very cunning and reasonable play to make the relatively mundane claim of miller on the coattails of webadict and Jim.

Why does a Miller claiming in their first post engender suspicion from you, particular given it's a pretty generally accepted way of playing as a Miller?

How does a Miller claim clear anyone, given the only way we know it's true is on a flip?

If someone investigates a claimed Miller, do you think that says more about the Miller or the Investigator?

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Esteemed Knightwing64

Also, I don’t know if this was stated in the OP, but there’s likely to be more then 2 scum, if that wasn’t obvious.

I am operating under the assumption there are at least four members of the mafia, given there are usually two in a nine-player game.

This is a D1 assumption and will probably (hopefully, likely) change as new information comes to light.

What are your thoughts on third parties we may face? Do you think it's more likely they will be benign, unaligned, or malign, and why?

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Esteemed EuchreJack

Quote from: Lenglon on December 15, 2023, 08:44:21 am

Jack: So you'd use it whenever? without consideration? If you're simply prepared to die because someone has to absorb the mafiakill, then would you be prepared to vote Jim if you thought he was scum? What are your views regarding BHK and Jim?

Jim's alignment is mostly null. That ability could be assigned to Town or Mafia. However, it leans Town, as it draws attention on Day 1, when most Mafia would just coast. However, Jim is a power wolf, so as Mafia, he might actually try to seize control of the game state on Day 1, despite that being crazy with this many players. Lean Town on Jim, since he's usually pretty good as Mafia. But maybe you should be shaking him down?

Now you start the post saying Esteemed Jim Groovester is null, then lean town, and I disagree in no small part because he didn't really have any input beyond a name and theme into how his role was going to shake out.

However, you do make an excellent point in that few people to this point seem to actually be putting questions to him, instead of egregiously speculating about what a small part of his role reveals about his alignment.

Why do you think that might be?

@Toony: I don't believe millers should claim. If they don't look scummy, they won't be suspected. It's a distraction in a game with this many players. Why are you trying to muddy up the waters with this many players? 

I disagree with this as well but what you suggest is one way of playing as a Miller.

However, given Esteemed ToonyMan's prominence in mafia on this forum, and his assertion that he always draws an inspect or the like on N1, how distracting do you think any Miller claim will be, particularly considering there are probably innumerous other ways of dealing with him should he actually be scum?

What are you worried about it distracting from?

Are you more worried about it drawing attention to our Esteemed ToonyMan?

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Esteemed TricMagic

Quote from: Lenglon on December 15, 2023, 04:20:34 am

Tric: If you had Jim's daykill, what would you put into your first post of the game?

More seriously, don't bother inspecting me. I inspect as SK. At least I know who to target tonight. Hey Jim, Dragon?

At the risk of sounding like I'm rolefishing (in a power heavy game, really guys? I guess role names could be important...), what role or theme would you submit that would get you an SK Miller?

Quote from: sofanthiel on December 15, 2023, 11:42:32 am

BOOTING COGNITION SYSTEMS...
VISUAL INTERFACE INITIATION COMPLETE...
BEGINNING STANDARD OPERATION PROCEDURE...

Quote from: Lenglon on December 15, 2023, 04:20:34 am

sofanthiel: Which three players here do you know the most about and which three do you know the least about?

This is my first time playing with many of the participants currently present, so I know equally nothing about most of you.  If I had to pick those I possess any understanding of out of the few I'm acquainted with, it'd be The Canadian kitten, CrystalizedMire, and Elephant Parade.  I believe I have some kind of grasp of their habits and playstyles, though this is possibly due to them also being as new-ish as I am.  It's pretty tough to analyze the more experienced players, especially Maximum Spin.

Quote from: BlackHeartKabal on December 15, 2023, 04:58:45 am

sofanthiel: Who, besides yourself, do you hope survives until the end?

So far?  I'll say it's probably  Elephant Parade; however, because of a distinct lack of information on that front so early on, my only reason is that he's fun to play with.

Elephant Parade, Is your ability offensive or defensive?  Who do you plan to use it on?  Is my 2nd question even applicable to your secret power?

Hmm. Defensive first vote, rolefishing, and a computer. Must be Sofmafia

Question to you, why vote Max when you're literally get nothing out of them day 1?

Do you think they'll get more out of him by not voting him?

What's the whiteknighting about?

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Esteemed sofanthiel

BOOTING COGNITION SYSTEMS...
VISUAL INTERFACE INITIATION COMPLETE...
BEGINNING STANDARD OPERATION PROCEDURE...

Quote from: Lenglon on December 15, 2023, 04:20:34 am

sofanthiel: Which three players here do you know the most about and which three do you know the least about?

This is my first time playing with many of the participants currently present, so I know equally nothing about most of you.  If I had to pick those I possess any understanding of out of the few I'm acquainted with, it'd be The Canadian kitten, CrystalizedMire, and Elephant Parade.  I believe I have some kind of grasp of their habits and playstyles, though this is possibly due to them also being as new-ish as I am.  It's pretty tough to analyze the more experienced players, especially Maximum Spin.

I like the initiative in going after more experienced players, but do you have a question or something you could ask that might prompt a response? I'm pretty sure Esteemed Maximum Spin will ignore you otherwise.

I mean, he might (will probably) ignore you if you ask a question anyway but you at least have an excuse not to move your vote if he ignores you with a question than without.

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Esteemed Elephant Parade

Quote from: EuchreJack on December 15, 2023, 07:54:02 am

Also: Who wants to be a pirate?

Me, but depending on what that entails, you might regret inducting me into your crew.

Lenglon: I've never seen an 18-player game before, so I'm not sure. I'd guess one team of four and a couple of malevolent third parties?

BlackHeartKabal: Lucky, but that isn't something you can choose to be.

NQT: I did not. Thanks for the fun fact.

Sofanthiel: I'm electing not to answer that.

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The Canadian kitten: Out of everyone you've played with before, who do you consider the most threatening player?

Egan_BW: Do you think you'll be killed tonight?

Secretdorf: What is the proper number of RVS questions to ask?

I don't really have anything to add, I agree with your supposition on alignment spread, for the most part.

Huge distaste on the way you format your posts sans quotes, but I can't get you lynched based on that, and I think it comes from jealousy also.

The existence of a pirate alignment seems nearly confirmed barring a ToonyMan/Imp scumteam seeing EJ's post and pulling a weird gambit. That doesn't seem very likely, but I also don't know why cult!EJ would openly recruit. I guess it could be a fake masonizer ploy?

EuchreJack: What does becoming a pirate entail?

I approve this line of questioning.

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Esteemed Imp

I'm not going to quote your post because I've been at it for almost two hours and I imagine I will get called away soon, but do you have reason to believe Esteemed EuchreJack is something we need to worry about?

Also, you mentioned here that I implied conversion abilities; I do not convert, but I can (and will!) make things difficult for certain people under certain conditions.

In that link you also go to great effort to make sure people don't try to kill you. I'm uncertain on the benefits of that since if it causes such issue for your enemies, why not risk having them kill you and causing them those issues? Another may have even greater benefit to the town at large than you, why risk losing them and causing no problems for your enemies, when your hostile loss from the game could?

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Esteemed ToonyMan

I can vouch for Imp here: My alignment inspects as Pirate instead of Town. This leads to me believe that Pirate is at the very least not a town alignment. Jack appears to be siding with or as a pirate here, which is not town behavior.

You as well...

Pfft. My thoughts regarding this are he may be a mafia-ally, though I have very little to base that on that hasn't come from other players.

PPE: welp I probably broke a rule in there somewhere but I have no time to check, oh well. I got up to page 14, hopefully that's enough for the time being.

4,961 irradiated haggis.