Bay 12 Games Forum

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10th grade, latin class.

Quote from: hector13 on April 18, 2017, 08:00:29 pm

I am backing independence for Scotland, and my main reason for that (self-determination) kinda has me on the fence in terms of Brexit. I like the idea of Europe, but it is like most political things nice looking on paper but in practice, a bit shit. I also don't know that much about EU machinations to shift myself off the fence, one way or t'other. This on a conscious level, anyway.
As I say, my gut likes Europe, and doesn't like the Tories. Thus, a Tory-led charge away from the mainland doesn't sit comfortably.
Presently my desire for Scottish independence is kept separate from my feelings regarding Europe, until I can reconcile them. Which probably won't happen since I'm lazy.

If Jezza was leading Brexit would you still have the same opinion? Also in your opinion, is self-determination irreconcilable within the UK? Pardon my questioning, we've not had much in the way of SNP viewpoints in Bay12 since Owlbread up sticks and went, and it leaves me very much curious

No problem at all.

Anyhow, as you've pointed out a few times already over the course of the thread, Brexit doesn't really have a soft or hard variety, so it kinda defeats the purpose of leaving if in doing so you lose the ability to influence the way things go, but opt to stay in certain parts. It probably wouldn't matter who was leading Brexit, I still wouldn't be entirely on board with it.

As for self-determination within the UK, in an ideal world it could happen, but in practice, I don't think it can. Theresa May has been clamouring on and on about how the country needs to pull together, but failed to inform the Scottish government precisely when she was going to trigger Article 50, despite apparently having discussed it with the Welsh government - who voted to Leave, as opposed to Scotland's Remain.

Seems a bit petty, and a little bit hypocritical after May's call for a grown-up relationship between the UK government and the devolved administrations. Further cheekiness from that, when she says she wants the relationships built on "cooperation and consensus" but just outright rejects Scotland's demands to remain a part of the common market as well as the UK. Also the whole "we need to focus on Brexit, you can't have your referendum. We're having a general election, by the way" thing, which essentially wastes two months of your two year negotiation process aimed at disentangling the UK from the past 40+ years of EU law and regulation.

It seems that (at least the current) British government considers Scotland a petulant child that needs to be kept in line, but I'm also aware of my huge bias against the Tories and for Scotland.

What about all the ther countries that aren't part of the EU common market that trade with the EU? China, the US, Canada et. al.

Quote from: hector13 on April 18, 2017, 06:57:24 am

Nah the British parties have to campaign that Brexit is still happening, but they can't do that in Scotland. I am curious how they deal with that dichotomy. I'm mostly surprised in my gut I still want the U.K. in yoorup.

I'm probably with you that Labour won't do well and I don't think the Lib Dems can move past the view they were spineless during the coalition, while Theresay May at least appears competent. She's also had the benefit of knowing she wants to do this, and has thus prepared for the campaigning.

My gut further tells me the Tories consolidate their position at the expense of Labour, while the SNP retain most of their seats in Scotland. Hopefully. May has forced Sturgeon's hand a bit, they may have to campaign on indyref2 to some extent. Could backfire handily though, for either side.

This seems a pretty astute summary of the factors involved. Though I imagine you're hoping it falls in Sturgeon's favour whereas I'm backing May.

Also, I thought you were backing independence for Scotland? If that's the case, why would you still want the U.K. in the EU? Or are you only in favour of Scottish independence in the event of the U.K. leaving the EU?

I am backing independence for Scotland, and my main reason for that (self-determination) kinda has me on the fence in terms of Brexit. I like the idea of Europe, but it is like most political things nice looking on paper but in practice, a bit shit. I also don't know that much about EU machinations to shift myself off the fence, one way or t'other. This on a conscious level, anyway.

As I say, my gut likes Europe, and doesn't like the Tories. Thus, a Tory-led charge away from the mainland doesn't sit comfortably.

Presently my desire for Scottish independence is kept separate from my feelings regarding Europe, until I can reconcile them. Which probably won't happen since I'm lazy.

Quote from: hector13 on April 18, 2017, 06:18:13 am

Well then.

Mrs. May calling for snap elections. Let's see if Bregret is an actual thing.

Yeah, we better hold our breath and wait and see if Corbyn gets in

To be honest, I'm sad about it. After the election, Red Jez will have to go, and Labour might actually end up with a leader we have to worry about again. I feel we could have clung onto the status quo for at least another couple of years.

Oh well. Interested to see if UKIP retains its position in the national vote, or if the Lib Dems manage to worm their way back into third place.

Nah the British parties have to campaign that Brexit is still happening, but they can't do that in Scotland. I am curious how they deal with that dichotomy. I'm mostly surprised in my gut I still want the U.K. in yoorup.

I'm probably with you that Labour won't do well and I don't think the Lib Dems can move past the view they were spineless during the coalition, while Theresay May at least appears competent. She's also had the benefit of knowing she wants to do this, and has thus prepared for the campaigning.

My gut further tells me the Tories consolidate their position at the expense of Labour, while the SNP retain most of their seats in Scotland. Hopefully. May has forced Sturgeon's hand a bit, they may have to campaign on indyref2 to some extent. Could backfire handily though, for either side.

The best part is a lot of that money is going into his pockets, given he owns the bloody place.