Bay 12 Games Forum

The doll-4maskwolf Initiative for solving Paranormal 25, 6th amendment
Lynch Leafsnail D3.

I don't think this is the best lynch choice. A matter of opinion.

Tiruin boops doll D3.

Neither you nor 4mask are cleared of being scum, you should not be deciding who Tiruin boops. Tiruin should not reveal which of the unconfirmed players she boops, so as to avoid the scum being able to work around it and using the non-booped partner for the NK.

TheBiggerFish lowers alert N3.
Deus Asmoth mindscans TheBiggerFish N3.

If TBF is town, he gets NK'd in this instance, meaning town!DA wastes their investigation. If TBF is scum, DA gets murdered in the night so they can't actually share what they find out. The scum could indulge in some WIFOM, and murder town!DA to implicate town!TBF, killing two birds with one stone, and making us waste a lynch.

DA's role is very limited here, considering 4mask and webadict have claimed roles with kill goals, basically making it a lot easier to narrow down who he's going to investigate and having that be wasted.

Given you seem to think the best course of action is also a guard chain focused on Tiruin, he probably won't be able to get an investigation off regardless!

TheDarkStar gives the shield to Tiruin and the assassination bot to Tiruin N3 - this protects her from scum Assassination bots.

Fine except giving away the bot. I think it's an unnecessary step.

N4 Tiruin gives the shield to hector13 and either uses the bot or gives it to hector13.

Why not give the shield to me N3, cut out the middle man? Frankly it would probably be better on Persus anyway, allowing him to stop all NKs on Tiruin for N3 and 4.

If TDS is the scumkill and dies, this leaves the clear hector-persus-Tiruin, a scanned TBF, webadict, DA, 4mask, and a booped doll. Lynch DA and bot-kill 4mask (TBF clear) or TBF (TBF scum). Lynch confirmed scum (doll-webadict) or boop webadict then no-lynch until the shield breaks (lynch doll, or lynch confirmed scum if doll died) or doll (if still alive) dies (lynch confirmed scum).

If doll is the scumkill, this leaves the clear hector-persus-Tiruin-TDS, a scanned TBF, webadict, DA and 4mask. Lynch DA and bot-kill 4mask. Lynch TBF (if TBF is not clear) or lynch webadict (if TBF is clear).

If Deus Asmoth is the scumkill, this leaves the clear hector-persus-Tiruin-TDS, a booped doll, webadict, TBF and 4mask. Lynch 4mask and bot-kill TBF, then proceed to no-lynch until scum are forced out as per the TDS scenario.

If TBF is the scumkill, this leaves the clear hector-persus-Tiruin-TDS, webadict,  a booped doll, DA, and 4mask. Lynch DA and botkill 4mask, then proceed according to TDS scenario.

If something unexpected happens, figure it out at that time I guess.

If TDS fails to hand over the tech, he's scum and get's lynched first, then DA, then non-clears until the doll-webadict stall endgame. If hector's shield breaks or a shieldless hector dies, lynch doll.

If hector13 ever dies to a scumkill, lynch doll.

doll is the likely NK for N3. TDS' flip clears a townie. Town!DA is under intense pressure so scum aren't going to let a scapegoat go quietly into the night. Scum!doll is meant to be at the end of the guard chain, so a hector NK would out them as obvscum. Three claimed war vets who the scum probably won't even try to go near.

Quote from: hector13 on February 21, 2017, 11:29:14 pm

A town Leafsnail flip doesn't do anything for the town's read at large on DA. He could still be scum.

This literally does not matter.

Looking at it the other way, a DA lynch provides information on Leafsnail and TBF.

Presently, lynching Leafsnail or DA and them flipping scum probably wins the game for town, as we botkill the other in the night.

If Leafsnail flips town, it tells us nothing about DA's alignment.

If DA flips town, we can be more comfortable in Leafsnail's survivor goal (though it doesn't guarantee he's not scum) and we know TBF has a killing goal, so he should probably be NK'd in the night.

So yes, it literally does matter. DA's lynch gets more information in the game, and considering that's something we need to decide who we lynch later, I cannot understand why a Leafsnail lynch is preferable.

The bot's existence has been revealed, and we know where it's going to go. Scum don't want it to be in the game, so it needs to be used ASAP, but preferably on a target the town can agree on. We don't know what roles the scum have, we should be expecting the worst.

Going forward with the initial assumption that Tiruin and TDS are town, the plan eliminates every player who is not mechanically clear.

As I said, you're not a great person to boop given that you're probably going to get NK'd on N3. It would be better on 4mask, webadict or TBF, depending on flips.

Your plan has holes in it. The fact you don't seem to see them is terrifying.

What else is he s'posed to do? Just roll over and accept it? You play the game to win, man, so I don't think any of those things make him scum.

Anyway, not best pleased with the plan. Of the unconfirmed players, I have the strongest town-read on 4mask, and the weakest on doll, thus I'm not really onboard with 4mask being botkilled at any point.

If Leafsnail is scum, DA is scum. If Leafsnail is not scum, why are we lynching him? The survivor at this point is a non-threat, best-case is he's VT, worst-case, scum/TP with holoform modulator.

a) If we lynch DA: he flips scum, Leafsnail is scum. Game over, probably.

b) he flips town, Leafsnail is not scum - excepting holoform modulator - botkill TBF as a result of the kill result from DA's scan.

Tiruin, hector, TDS, 4mask, webadict, doll, Persus and Leafsnail remain.

Tiruin should probably privately decide who of the unconfirmed players she boops - 4mask, webadict, doll - so as to avoid scum being clued in, allowing them to choose the non-booped player to perform the NK.

TDS trades shield to Tiruin, thus protecting her from scum assassin bots, Persus protects Tiruin for all the NKs, hector protect Persus, doll should probably protect hector, the two remaining war vets should probably be on alert.

Leafsnail is VT or survivor, TDS is essentially VT and his death will probably clear hector, and hector's death will at least confirm TDS is truthing, meaning the likely NK is doll, especially if he's protecting hector.

If nobody flips scum, scum are probably 4mask and webadict.

Well I don't really want to argue against people considering me town but okay.

In order for me to be scum, TDS would have to be scum too, which... probably not the best gambit to make on D3 when we would've already lost our third scum partner. Not something I'd've signed off on.

In order for Persus to be scum, that would mean Tiruin would have to be scum - there is also the possibility of Persus/Tiruin being the Hivemind, but again, risky gambit to make early doors - which seems unlikely.

So I guess yeah... doll is the most likely to be scum, given their claim isn't from someone else's claim.

However, what about Holoform Modulators? I'm not sure how they work, or if the Advanced version could fool a scanner, but if Persus or I had one as a hivemind (this seems like the only role that would have one, imo) we could've used it when we were investigated by other people, who we wouldn't have had to convert. This would give us ostensible town-cred should that person backing our claim flip at some point.

The guards could also have been converted when they protected Tiruin.

Meph: how would it work if multiple guards protected the same target one night, and a hivemind chose that night to convert the protected player?

All the guards could be dopps as well, you know, just to throw some more fuel on your fire.

Bugger it. Seeing as some folk don't appear to be on the DA train, I guess I feel compelled to respond.

doll:

Quote from: doll on February 19, 2017, 02:28:58 pm

Deus Asmoth
You're a telepath.
TBF knows your inspect result on him (or at least what it would appear as).

He knows what it appears as because he's telling the truth (or has claimed a role with a matching goal I guess). I wanted to see if he was going to claim something that didn't match the result I had on him, since he was being hesitant about actually claiming.

hector:

Quote from: hector13 on February 19, 2017, 01:37:04 am

DA

Quote from: Deus Asmoth on February 19, 2017, 12:09:00 am

Doll: I know Leafsnail can't be scum.

Why not go whole hog and make your claim? Leafsnail claimed they were a kook earlier, there are only so many roles that'll either see through that or not be bothered by it.

You see where I said I was holding on the role claim to see what TBF claimed?

You holding off your claim at the time didn't make sense. We knew there were two observant guards in the game, one claimed and one hadn't. Tiruin is essentially being treated as confirmed town, so it's fairly obvious she's getting protected all over the joint (all three guards claimed to have protected her N2, after all) which left one to protect you because your role, if town, is quite useful.

I imagine it would bring someone to the table quickly if you say they have a kill goal, too.

When you got your N2 result, what role do you think TBF had? Why?

Taking those answers into consideration, why did you think it would be better to soft-claim something, say you knew that Leafsnail - a claimed kook, allowing people to narrow down what you are even further - wasn't scum, and wait for TBF to claim in their own time?

Quote

Quote from: Deus Asmoth on February 19, 2017, 12:09:00 am

4mask: hector's posts have been striking me as scummy since I read over the thread during N1, for largely similar reasons to the read I gave in #287. After spending much of D2 arguing with me about my case from D1, including FoSing over it towards day end, he's also dropped that line of enquiry altogether in favour of using doll's case instead. There's also the matter that I mentioned that he was misrepresenting what I had said when I posted at the start of D2, and he continued to do so until his last post during D2 when he said he'd actually worded it wrongly and I should apparently have assumed that was what had happened from the beginning.

"much of day 2" compromising all of 2 posts, this, which was directed at a lot of people, and this which happened after the RattyB revelation, which was directed at someone I wanted some clarification from, and TDS, who made one contribution on D2.

Where am I only using doll's case? I said I agreed with him, but also said I wasn't particularly pleased with your lack of movement on TBF during D2.

Who's misrepresenting whom, again?

You are. Again. Are you claiming that your discussion with me wasn't the majority or your day 2 activity?

I made two posts on D2, you appeared in both of them. By that metric, the majority of my D2 was spent on you.

But you didn't say that. You said I spent "much of D2" arguing with you, which is patently untrue.

While everyone else was happy to shorten the day away, I wanted to respond to you, let people know that had I had suspicions regarding you. Had I not done that, the majority of my D2 would've been hounding doll about being an ass, and Tiruin apparently obfuscating, with a little bit of shade thown at you, and quick questions for TBF and Shakerag.

In the quote above, I have bolded the last sentence you directed at 4mask. Why did you use the phrase "he continued to do so until his last post", knowing that I had only posted twice on D2?

While I'm no every-man, to me that phrase implies some degree of incessant, repetitive behaviour, for example "he professed his innocence, and continued to do so until his dying breath." rather than two instances of something happening. Anyway... continuing on to the end of the bolded sentence:

When did I say you should have assumed that I was miscommunicating my thoughts about you regarding third parties?

I also note you draw the conversation away from the fact you also said I dropped that line of enquiry in favour of doll's case, which is untrue.

Why are you so eager to misrepresent me, when a significant part of your case on me is that I am misrepresenting you?

If you think I am scum as a result of misrepresenting you, what do you think others should think of you misrepresenting me?


PPE: haven't read anything since webadict's roleplaying post, in case something important happened.

I've actually found that fighting gives a much higher warscore than besieging in Great Holy Wars. If I want whatever is up for grabs, I usually pool all my guys together and send 'em off fighting, splitting them if there's going to be issues with attrition.

Does DA strike you as town? 'cause that's the only way he's going to be useful to us, and I don't think he is.

I also protected Tiruin N2.