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Messages - tourettedog

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1
This has gotten off track.

Proposition submitted for debate:
If you actually are in any way angered by the question "why should we continue to donate when there haven't been any releases for a year and core gameplay and interface issues haven't been addressed?", then perhaps it's time to pause, go out and get some fresh air, and think a bit about your life.

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DF General Discussion / Re: What turns you off about DF?
« on: April 21, 2009, 12:21:41 pm »
I was thinking that DwarfFort would look at the item type and put up a statement about it....

What about cleaning up the movie interface -- or establishing a link between the current in-game help system and movie files -- and having some DF-movie based tutorials for major features?  Use the note feature to display tutorial text, and you could have some decent in-game video help using pretty much existing tools (and requiring little coding).

Linking the help files to the movies might take a little effort, but again the movies could come from volunteers.

<ObGripe>and add more late-game content to keep them interested once they've gotten a handle on the early part.</ObGripe>

Quote
Of course he's trolling.

Even trolls can make good points.

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DF General Discussion / Re: What turns you off about DF?
« on: April 20, 2009, 09:20:21 pm »
And making placeholder junk to implement sending out war parties to sack goblin forts, megafauna that can be captured and sent along with war parties, actual diplomacy options, being able to embargo a city and have them cave to demands, and slave trading/exchanging prisoners of war could probably be implemented in about five minutes right? Probably just a couple of dice rolls or something.  ::)

Excellent point.  Because that totally wasn't just a 6-line pseudocode example written to indicate how he could do it without setting up a hack he'd have to pull out later. 

And anyway, he clearly hasn't already done something similar with an init option for sieges.  Or temperature.  Or cave-ins.

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DF General Discussion / Re: What turns you off about DF?
« on: April 20, 2009, 09:10:50 pm »
If you're going to act like that, people aren't even going to read the rest of your posts, much less take them seriously. Realize that you're being a dismissive jerk not only to the people who like where the game is headed, but also to the person who decided to do it that way in the first place.

So "myopic myopic can't read the design docs you're so short-sighted you enemy of art and I pity your ignorace" condescension is cool, but I finally take a dig at you and suddenly that's a foul?  Seriously, for someone so concerned with being "dismissive", have you actually re-read any of your own posts?

But whatever.  If I really did hurt your feelings, then I apologize.  I thought that it was pretty obvious that that line was hyperbole, and I assumed that it could be read in the context of your 'oh god please not too many concessions to the gameplay-oriented plebs' comment as a response in similar vein.

Now would you like to respond to any of the other points?  Specifically the one where I said the thing that turns me off about DF is that it has major gameplay issues (not only bugs but lack of content) that have languished for months, and that they're probably driving away players and potential sponsors?  And that there are small things that could be done now to improve gameplay that would not necessarily involve sacrificing long-term plans?

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DF General Discussion / Re: What turns you off about DF?
« on: April 20, 2009, 08:52:10 pm »
Yeah, doing twice the amount of work for items that are already coming up in the near future sounds productive.

Spend months putting in placeholder code and then a year down the line gut all of that and make the "real version"...

There'd be no more gutting involved than there is for the temperature init option right now.  Hell, he could have set most of this up through empty functions a while ago; and for all I know that's what he did.

You write something like this:

function calculate_weapon_damage(weapon_data, victim):
  if weapon_data has super_complex_materials_data then:
    // calculate it based on tensile strength and victim tissue information
  else:
    return dieroll(2d6+1)
end

And until you're ready to start implementing all that fun stuff you just never attach materials data to any weapon data.  Once you decide to start dealing with the tensile/shear strength of someone's armor versus the weapon being used, you go and fill in the code in the comment, write up and link your material data to the weapons and armor, and go from there.

There's some functional equivalent of this code implemented already, as evidenced by the fact that you can turn off things like the economy, weather, and temperature effects; all of which are pretty pervasive.

Meanwhile, huge amounts of detail is being added to stuff that could easily be abstracted out in a way that code for it could be dropped in later, while major gameplay issues are left unaddressed for months.

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I know Toady has to rely on donations, but I hope he doesn't ever end up making too many concessions in order to drum up downloads or a bigger player base.

Unless the "I love playing Dwarven-dress-up" brigade is ready to stand up and support Toady all by themselves, they should accept the fact that he might actually have to turn his attention to immediate gameplay concerns to retain sufficient fans to support himself, rather than laying ever-more-elaborate foundations for a hugely ambitious and complex vision that may or may not ever actually be realizable.

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DF General Discussion / Re: What turns you off about DF?
« on: April 20, 2009, 05:32:34 pm »
I've said it before and I'm saying it again now: Anyone who doesn't think that civilization entity definitions, dwarven personality, religion, etc. have anything to do with the development of the actual gameplay has absolutely no idea where the game is going in the first place.

They may have something to do with the gameplay, but it's not gameplay at a level of detail that a lot of people here are interested in.  I've got no interest in a game where I have to pick just the cutest little dwarf with the sweetest personality to be the captain of the guard and dressing him up in a lovely *Pig tail dress* that's dyed his very most favorite of all colors because it'll give some tiny bonus to the mood of my fort.  I want a game to play, not a game that half plays itself based on thousands of behind-the-scenes variables and waits for me to catch up with how clever it's being. 

Sending out war parties to sack goblin forts?  Megafauna that I can capture and send along with the war parties?  Actual diplomacy options, like asking the goblins to join up and kick the shit out of the elves?  Being able to embargo a city and have them cave to my demands because they want stone trumpets just that much?  Slave trading and exchanging prisoners of war?  I can get solidly behind every one of those, because they let me interact with the game, as opposed to reading pages of DF mad libs to find the one entry that lets me figure out -- five minutes after the fact -- why some otherwise inexplicable event happened. 

As a side note, if even one of those things popped up in a future release -- assuming I'm still following development by then -- I'll probably kick another $50+ into the kitty. 

Now explain to me why teeth, beard layers and the hyper-detailed physical properties of the haft of the sword of the third '@' from the left are critical to any of those?  Many of these details are probably going to have to turn into init options so that computers don't get choked on all the calculations anyway, why not pick the ones that are headed that way, put in the placeholder code now, add some fun stuff to lure back the people on the non-simulationist side of the fence, and then go back and add the detailed stuff later?

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DF General Discussion / Re: What turns you off about DF?
« on: April 19, 2009, 08:41:31 pm »
I think I've made a good case already for how the game is moving in a direction far more complicated than that, and why that's a good thing.

I think you've restated the conventional wisdom on the part of all the people who like the text-based facial feature simulation that you have faith that this will all converge into something that has deep and interesting ramifications on gameplay.  My point is that huge amounts of detail are being added at an extremely intricate level that -- assuming it can all be integrated -- may still not end up having a noticeable impact on gameplay. 

Even if we do have it impact gameplay, I'd rather not dig through four levels of keypresses to finally figure out that -- for instance -- the reason I'm getting bad deals from the caravan is that my broker is hideously deformed.  That would be cool exactly once: the first time I realized that that was what was going on.  Then it would quickly become annoying to have to sort through all my dwarfs to find a good-looking broker from that point forward.  I realize that may be right up some people's alley -- and bully for you if it is, I don't get the fascination, but if it's your thing then great -- but fact remains, it's a turn off for me.

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You're committing the exact same fallacy that tourrettedog is. You're assuming the the "fluff" has no gameplay relevance due to short-sightedness. You have to keep in mind the kind of gameplay it's going to make possible in the near future.

Could we leave the "shortsighted" thing out of it?  We're raising practical, immediate concerns that respond to the question "what turns you off about DF?"  I imagine anyone reading this forum has, at some point, read the dev pages and knows what Toady has planned.  Acting like you're transmitting some sort of revelation when you write "Oh, this will all pull together into a glorious confluence" misses the point that a) we know that that's the plan, and b) right now, today, what's turning us off about DF is the fact that there are major gameplay issues that are being 90% ignored while we get fine-tuned text-based beard growth hidden away under four keypresses.

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DF General Discussion / Re: What turns you off about DF?
« on: April 19, 2009, 06:15:57 pm »
I'm sort of disappointed to see that the people who really, genuinely don't care what color Urist's left eye is are so off-handedly dismissed as being myopic by some of the posters here, but what the hell.  Here's my two bits.

The lack of interesting things to do for players with a "gamer" orientation rather than a "simulationist" orientation once you get comfortable with the game is a huge turnoff for me right now.  Even using self-imposed limits -- my last fortress was completely open-air design with no walls, no traps, no farming, and no shields or armor -- once you get the hang of the game any given fort ends up being pretty damn dull after 5 or 6 years.  Invaders seem to run out, chasm and lava critters get exterminated, dwarves become stupidly happy over trivial things, and generally it reaches a point where you can quite literally walk away from the keyboard, stop back in to undo the auto-pauses once in a while and order in some more booze production, and the fort will hum on merrily for years with almost zero intervention.

For those that like mega-projects and think that invasions are a distraction from building obsidian pyramids or whatever, that's a good thing.  For people who like an externally-imposed challenge and risk of failure, it's not.

It's good that a lot of these things have either been tweaked already or are on the radar to be fixed, but until they are fixed, the appeal of the game is being limited.  The fact that all the simulationist stuff is hidden away where I don't have to pay attention to it unless I get curious is great, but it also means that there's been very few changes that are visible to someone (like me) who doesn't leaf through every description and history entry as a matter of course, and even fewer that I actually care about.  I mean, do you really care about the state of the teeth and beard of every one of your 100+ digital dwarves?

I'd love to see an "Arcade mode" where it just generates enough random terrain for a single fort, abstracts out the entire world past the fortress map borders, and just keeps throwing more and more crap at you faster and faster until your fort collapses. 

I don't need to know -- and really kind of don't care -- that the goblins are attacking because the demon got attacked by an elf that was enslaved by a dwarf (who had a brown beard that was unevenly cut and was missing his right incisor) that was kidnapped but rescued by those sames goblins 300 years ago.  We got dwarves (all of whom look dwarf-ish), we got goblins (all of whom look goblin-ish), goblins attack dwarves because that's what they do, and we can move on from there to seeing just how long I can hold out against ever-larger waves of successively more pissed off and better armed goblins + friends.

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DF Adventure Mode Discussion / Re: Modding weapons and armor
« on: September 08, 2006, 02:55:00 pm »
Yeah, the changes from the RAW files are only included in a world when it's rebuilt.  Do "generate new world" and you'll see the wimpy arrows.

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DF Adventure Mode Discussion / Re: Play now! Naked!
« on: September 04, 2006, 10:34:00 pm »
I just thought it might make sense as a cheap/quick fix to give the character some sort of basic equipment when starting; make it a default human swordsman or something, rather than random naked guy.  Easy to do and makes 'play now' a little more interesting and a little less (immediately) suicidal.

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DF Adventure Mode Discussion / Play now! Naked!
« on: September 04, 2006, 02:24:00 am »
When you select "Human: Play now!" under adventure mode, is it supposed to start you out bare-ass naked in front of a demon-infested abandoned fort?  It'd be nice if you could maybe pick a weapon specialty and start with some basic gear, at least.

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DF Adventure Mode Discussion / Re: The finer points of wrestling
« on: August 30, 2006, 07:12:00 pm »
Also, non-humanoid creatures (eg antmen) seem to be immune to joint locks.  Having a weapon handy to stab them to death with after you've ripped out their eyes is handy.

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DF Gameplay Questions / Re: Capturing Animals (outside?)
« on: August 25, 2006, 05:46:00 pm »
The kennels has a capture animal job, which requires animal traps from the carpenter to run.  You need the trapper skill on the carpenter to make the animal traps, then the trapper skill on your kennel guy to run the job.  If you run the job more than once, and don't do something with the first animal you caught, the job seems to hang sometimes without telling you that you need to do something with the animal and get a fresh trap.

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DF Gameplay Questions / Re: How to Capture Live Fish?
« on: August 25, 2006, 05:51:00 pm »
It seemed to require 'trapper' for me.  I know I didn't have the guy on fish, at any rate.  But yeah, an animal trap and the 'catch live fish' job at the fishery.

15
DF Bug Reports / Miners refusing to dig?
« on: September 11, 2006, 08:52:00 pm »
I started a new game with the latest version, and made a sprint to get a farm set up on the far side of the river.  I saved, quit, and reloaded later, and now the miner won't dig out any of the areas I've designated, nor will anyone I assign the mining job to.

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