Bay 12 Games Forum

You can probably get decently superhuman intelligence from a any ape by simply increasing the brain size, although it'll lack in culture and memories. The reason to use humans for intelligence requiring servitors is: they live longer and the like, as already mentioned, and you save a little bit of time on training since some already know the basics of speech and mathematics. Take 100 chimps, use a stain of blood on their brain that will make them 10 times larger, and leave them alone for 20 years, and you'll get pretty much the same result as if you had used kidnapped-at-birth human children, which is close enough for most purposes.

Indeed the processing power available would be comparable, but plains-apes and monkeys are not particularly widespread or numerous before their civilization takes root. The locations where they were common would be the only places that the obvious inspiration and raw materials would be available. And monkeys and apes do not necessarily live in the concentrations  needed for easy harvest.

I suppose you could use these facts to make an argument that modern humans and their civilization were the result of entrepreneurial Deep Noble breeding programs, but that would be an interpretation external to their core canon.

I were thinking more of the dramatic cases where those natural processes aren't enough, and adult nobles have to do a dramatic surgical procedure on themselves which alters their personality overnight. (If you have read A Fire Upon The Deep you probably know the kind of thing I'm thing I'm thinking of from the result of Tines changing pack members. )

Ah Vernor Vinge is quite a wonderful explorer of mind, Yes that is a possibility in deep nobles. Although the reinforcing of the other nodes onto the new tissue is going to make drastic mental surgery tricky. There is likely a very deep and personal art to it and it also is fret with the peril that you will unhinge yourself into a spiral of suffering that will demand that others put you out of your misery for your own pitiable sake.

Yeah, Eldarichian horors is always the picture when I think or see those monsterous abomonations on that show; the things they call ponies.

picture is cute and displays my feel towards that bro-dom

Actually I always think they could be described as AI for some kind of terraforming/life support system.

Also thank you, I don't self-identify as a brony... but that is more because I tend to out-strange any sub-culture I try to identify with.

Quote from: nighzmarquls on February 09, 2012, 01:20:28 am

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Just have applejack and the background to do!

Progress on madness, Hooray!

What the hay is this?

Great, now I'm going to have them nightmares. -_-

Oh dear, I'm sorry! did not intend to cause nightmares, I just wanted to add to the ponification of the universe in my own way

Thanks once again for the detailed answers! That should be enough for now to get me started (but you know I've got more questions).

Firstly (and not really a question), I'm aware of just how valuable the "whale press" would be.

Very good

I actually thought it in context of The Archivist (now Zahuel Lethnn Aueel Sikhuue Alzerry-Heahh (Lit: "That one of the clan Zahuel Lethnn Aueel, Sikhuue the-one-who-looks-back)) and their position within the city. Basically, since this is a young city primarily concerned with expanding and the export of raw servitor materials to larger, more established outposts I see two Deep Nobles holding the real power in the young metropolis, Huindentr Vashcoll Treimeey (The Little Eye of the Cavern of Hanging Stones).

I will be the first to admit that I don't know a good way to convey this in linear text, but something I was trying to convey in the Deep Noble Language section is that they make use of a lot of simultaneous vocalizations. Some of these Names sound a bit long (and also can be cumbersome to read) if you say them in a linear manner but probably would not if they overlapped.

You could probably reduce some of the clunkiness in reading this by taking some of the words and blending them together by having the first and last syllable of each component merged so that one takes dominance, or picking one of the more distinct single words and using that as short hand for referring to a character or place (as you do later in this post). I'd hate to have the Deep Noble's naming conventions get in the way of telling a good story.

Firstly, Wzeissaut Guoinrr Kroixxver Ooupi... *snip*

That one seems like an interesting character with motivations that may very readily if not endear them to an audience at least give people some view points onto the Noble Civilization  they are familiar with. Which when combined with the paranoia of this human quality being something that could 'out' them in Deep Noble society driving home where the culture is different and bringing it into sharp contrast.

The second citizen of note in Huindentr Vashcoll Treimeey is Quaxxzven Zwiixuall Hdvuue Siia, ubiquitously known as The Quaxxzven Zwiixuall Hdvuue of Quaxxzven Zwiixuall Hdvuue, last living and oldest of the line. *snip*

The sheer age suggested here is something I'm leery of because it needs to be handled with care.

That is an age which means Siia predates the adoption of Deep Nobles Using Writing in most settings because it predates most human civilization. So if your going to throw around ages like that you need to be prepared to acknowledge what your saying with that sheer breadth of time, especially if they are going to be engaging with other characters.

That is deep enough history that if this character was on earth Siia would personally have seen the rising of all human civilization, would have intuitive knowledge of climactic shift and probably is aware of geological change/tectonic motion measured in miles based on their own memories.

Also they must be extremely risk averse and lucky besides, The Estimations of how long a human being could manage to survive if they never got sick or aged past 30 before the odds stacked against them for violent death/accident is only 3000 years. I'd put a guess that Deep Noble Robustness might double or triple that average life expectancy but that still means Siia is three times older then is probable.

Just would like you to have both eyes open if you want to descend that particular cliff
         

Now Zahuel Lethnn Aueel Sikhuue Alzerry-Heahh is well acquainted with both Siia and Ooupi and enjoys their patronage...

Definitely getting a lot of the stratification of Deep Noble Society across here, and in a personable way I like it... also explains why the archivist is getting something comparable to a gold plated piano made of dodo-ivory and diamonds that has to burn a gallon of oil for every three chords played.

Few. That got a bit more out of hand than I thought it would. As a final note on the "whale press" I would add that it represents both the results of the above interactions and the culmination of Sikhuue's life's work. All as a framing device for a bit of exposition in the upcoming story.

Such a lovely artifact, would be a shame if something 'happened' to it

Finally, actual questions: We know that there are humans in the Deep Noble's world as well as normal animals that we would recognize. Are there other sentient races? Classic fantasy races +, entirely created races or none of the above? Are there "monsters" (dragon, troll, ogre, etc)? Are any cavern dwelling animals common?

Deep Nobles are portable, I am going to leave it open as far as 'canon' what their neighbors actually are, however wherever they end up their civilization makes no exceptions for the view of none-royal / none-Deep Noble life. Individuals can have their own personal perspectives on outsiders but as a majority/common interactions they make no exceptions to their attitude that ALL life no matter its form or origin is inferior to them and their royals.

The Royals: A Noble city can only really be built around a Royal, but what determines where these Royals are placed in the world? Do the nobles have some method for breeding and moving the royals or is it out of their hands? For such a large sessile creature as the Royals I can see a young motile stage where they wander about eating everything in sight until settling down in some suitably empty cavern. Basically, do Nobles scout around for a new site for a city and then somehow move a Royal or would they have to stumble upon a place where a young Royal had decided to go sessile?

I don't have the energy to encapsulate these tidbits in the main page tonight so I hope this suffices to answer your questions for now:

Royals are perfectly CAPABLE of moving, They choose not to for most of any given Noble's living memory and for reasons that they cannot adequately explain (HANDY PLOT DEVICES OF MYSTERY). These migrations though are actually something that terrifies any Deep Nobles that have seen it before and would strike terror into the hearts of surface folk if they ever witnessed it.

Royals do not care about obstacles of any kind when they are on the move, they spew acid that melts impediments and aggravating life forms (including Deep Nobles), their bodies rise to remarkable temperatures and melt through stone like it was butter... or they simply force their way into a wall and push/shove the rock out of their way causing great upheavals above and below..

In many ways Royals embody all the fickleness of natural disasters and chaos in the realm of Deep Nobles but as living breathing things that can be worshiped, objectively studied and at least theoretically placated.

Young Royals do occur, but the exact reasoning for, method of or requirements to induce are unknown to deep nobles, they simply happen occasionally with very little warning. Royals as often will split via mitosis as go on excursions to meet one another and produce 'little' whelps. Large Royals will some times fission into dozens of smaller ones and more or less destroy a settlement by leaving it with no source of Royal Blood.

The birth of a royal is an event that is a disaster for the resident Deep Noble population, because it will generally migrate through their city killing and destroying everything that impedes it and without proper warning there is little chance the unfortunates in its way will survive.

But it is also a new opportunity for the survivors as a newly born Royal will set out through the earth to find somewhere with the requisite food, water and raw materials to feed on, which pioneering young Nobles and families will often seek out to establish cities around.

So in closing for Royals its a bit like living next to a combination between Lavos and Godzilla that you can use for power 99.998% of the time but occasionally goes for a walk or gives birth to screaming burrowing babies of doom.

The two above questions are the most pressing, but as a final one: What do the Noble do for fun? *snip*

I imagine their actually very enthusiastic over many of the things we are and with the moral absolution that no living thing but another Deep Noble has immutable rights or any purpose BUT to serve them the degrees of their depravities can be far more extreme then I expect most human beings could be comfortable contemplating.

Also Armok has some excellent ideas as well that I think fit very well

What's the the attitude towards extremely intelligent (or at least exceptional in some mental attribute) servitors? Mathematicans using http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_computer s, artificial idiot savants with many hands and eyes and swollen brains for multitasking.  Artists using as their canvass a mass of visual cortex made to grow cancerously into a large sheet and covered directly on octopus skin, trained to react in complex ways to the touch of the brush as, as well as preforming functions such as memorizing and recalling pieces. Series of humans with ever-increasing and more general inelegance, playing games against one another in a fiercely competitive display of their creators craft.

Damn You Armok! I'm going to have to do some bits on arts and crafts for Deep Nobles now All of that stuff is GOLDEN.

I suspect however that they actually have a bit of difficulty in thinking up the more advanced mathematics themselves due to how much rigor and uniformity that would require among individuals, more often then not if they have observed humans performing complex calculations they would  collect those, otherwise they probably string together brains/humans in great chains of simple number crunch/brute force counting batteries rather then anything as complex as calculus or linear algebra.

perhaps once every few thousand years they might develop a mathematically inclined Deep Noble that truly realizes the potential of human computers and create custom servitors to fullfill great sweeping dreams of engineering. Unfortunately all the notes of such a star would likely be rendered incomprehensible jargon by the time such was achieved.

Well now I'm just going to have to write that story! Quick question (or rather request): Some naming conventions. Even if they're simple (Lots of sibilants and apostrophes! Lots of Z's and X's! etc) , this will be incredibly useful, especially for maintaining cohesion if lots of people write stories. City namimg conventions would also be useful.

Updated the City Segment and Added a Section on Language to explain this one, they actually have a bit of an aversion to most consonants and heavily lip oriented sounds.

One of the ideas I was toying with was that as well as your everyday given names (whatever they may be) certain Nobles who have risen to (what they themselves consider) the pinnacle of their chosen art would give themselves titles (perhaps having had your title for so long as to have forgotten your real name could be a cultural trope concerning wisdom?). As an example, a character I was thinking of using as a exposition framing device and mentor for our young Noble would "The Archivist", a Noble of great age and learning whose obsession is the history of the Deep Noble people had driven him from his home city and fetched him up in the provincial backwater our protagonist comes from.

That would be interesting, although there is not as much of a cultural basis of losing your real name... although taking up new names or having many of them could be viewed as something comparable to this and have proponents arguing over the true basis of wisdom in the camps of 'more names' or 'fewer names'.

It would probably be considered especially sad if a Deep Noble was so isolated from others that there was not a single soul on the world permitted to use their given name.

I can see a whole backstory where some other Noble claimed the title and the constant trouble and feuding. This would mainly be for an opening scene where our protagonist (thanks to their obsession with mechanisms) is helping The Archivist with the design and construction of a servitor printing press for the manufacture of Russian-Doll-like copper sphere books. For the device, the basic components would be whale jaws and the heavily treated arteries of heat resistant creatures filled with noble blood, controllable under nerve impulse to form shapes and incise the words into the copper. Perhaps also a symbiotic creature formed of the brain-kernels of three human scribes and a half-hundred eagle eyes that only see into the machines "mouth", to act as a spellcheck/factcheck mechanism?     

Hmmm if it was proper real Whale Jaw that would be a piece worth a mighty fortune by Noble Standards as large cave complexes and Oceans don't tend to over lap very readily, they also are not prone (perhaps ironically for those who think they resemble squid) to sail very often as they don't particularly like weather.

The same would also apply to eagle eyes (perhaps more so as live eagles are not the easiest thing to catch for a culture that lives primarily underground).

This would make the device quite the treasure by their view a masterwork of perhaps gaudy opulence.

As to the Royal Blood in war thing, after further thought and reading of replies I have come to the following conclusions...

YES! Exactly, to be fair Deep Nobles are not particularly prolific as a culture due to how much population control they impose on themselves. So this tends to work with their extreme individualism towards making military more like very small teams of dedicated war enthusiasts then standing rank and file soldiers.

Back on track, here is a situation where they would chose to punish rather than honor a foe...

That would fit correctly in their culture I'm so glad that these ideas are getting across clearly .

Sounds like pigs would work decently to.

For brute labor yes now that I think of it . Although any tasks requiring dexterity would need supplemental parts, its a lot of work to turn a trotter into a hand.

Vector's is the Math that will pierce the heavens?

X= sin(t)
Z= cos(t)
Y= t^t

To the heavens!