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Messages - GreatJustice

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1081
Nah, never roda an ATV before. I mean, I kinda expected it to be easier than a bike: after all, you've got twice the amount of wheels, amirite?

But hey, I'll have plenty time to learn there I guess. Or die trying. Or whatever. :p

One thing that jus dawned on me is that the legal drinking age is 21 over there. I'm only 20, but the legal drinking age is 16 (well, for beer and wine, 18 for liquors). Is that kind of stuff strictly enforced? I mean, not being able to drink a cold beer after a long day of hard work will suck.

If all else fails, you could try to go to Alberta or Saskatchewan in Canada (a fair distance, but not a week long trek or anything round trip from South Dakota), where the drinking ages are 18 and 19, respectively.

1082
Ah, but the corporation DOES sue people. You wouldn't say "A variety of people in an organization that produces fast food known as McDonalds sued a variety of people in an organization that produces shoes called Nike", you would say "Mcdonalds sued Nike".
Strictly because the latter's shorter than the former and linguistic convention has accepted that speaking in the latter manner is acceptable. The former is actually accurate. The latter is, and only is, a way to avoid having to spell it out quite so explicitly. That doesn't magically make McDonalds or Nike things that exist outside a person's head. It is directly equivalent to me saying "epistemology" instead of "the study of knowledge." Specialized language and not a wit more.

Like I said, to a heavy degree that's basically the crux of it. We've stated that a collective -- which is only a thing in a cognitive sense, and doesn't actually exist beyond that -- is an individual, and somehow deserves some of the rights (but not all of the responsibilities!) of an individual. If a corp, or a union, or whatever, exhibited the same degree of independence that a human does to, say, its lungs, I might be able to get behind the concept of groups as individuals.

But, they don't. Corps are fully controlled by individuals, and explicitly demonstrate the leading and control of individuals. The only times this seems (and only seems) to blur is when we allow those controlling individuals to hide behind the collective mantle of whatever it is they're directing... and allowing that perception -- and exponentially worse, attempting to enshrine it into law -- is causing extremely blatant problems.

I'd put it bluntly. The courts screwed the pooch with this one, and a reading of the constitution that does what you're speaking of is one that seriously needs to be reexamined. Calling things that are blatantly not people, people, isn't something we should be doing. Establishing laws for the recognition and protection of collective action? Yes, we need that. Calling collective action anything but what it is? No. We don't need that.

Yes, it is a strictly epistemological conclusion, but its still a true one, again, because the dog sure isn't complaining whereas the corporation (or the people representing it) is. The dog does not have representatives unless you count its owners, either.

Another point though: dogs don't "speak", they bark. There is no freedom of barking. If I went out late at night and barked, I wouldn't be sent to the pound but I would probably be fined for disturbing the peace (which is what dogs are doing by barking). Inversely, if a dog started campaigning for Rick Santorum, I seriously doubt it would be sent to the pound for doing so (or even if it was swearing and offending people). Therefore, it can be said that dogs, and therefore corporations, have freedom of speech.
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The obvious answer is that is is no coincidence at all. Perhaps we are all sockpuppets of Necro.

Quiet, you're giving too much away!

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But a corporation isn't sentient or sapient any more than an is does when there is someone piloting it.

A corporation is also an abstract concept that doesn't exist in the real world. However, the government also is an abstract concept that doesn't exist in the free world, but I don't think anyone would say the government doesn't have freedom of speech.
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(And you say 'the airplane crashed', not 'the pilot of the airplane crashed', even in when the crash happens due to user error.)

Well yeah, even if the pilot of the airplane is responsible for crashing the airplane he isn't physically crashing. It's the plane plowing into the ground, the pilot just so happens to be inside. "The pilot of the airplane crashed" implies that he was racing across the sky like Superman and didn't watch where he was going.

1083
Well there has to be a limit as to what that applies to. Otherwise dogs couldn't be locked up for barking; they're just practicing their freedom of speech. As far as I know, everyone draws that line at "people." (EDIT: Well, "citizens" would probably be more accurate now that I think about it. And of course organizations aren't citizens.)

Dogs won't sue you if they are locked up for practicing their freedom of speech, nor will their lawyers go after you if you don't read them their Miranda Rights before sending them to the pound.
... a corporation has no ears to be read the Miranda rights to. It has no eyes to read an indiction. It has no voice to speak to lawyers, nor hands to write orders to them. It has no physical presence. A corporation is an organizational trick we use to make it easier for us to deal with the actions of individuals in aggregate. It's not a thing. It doesn't actually exist, at all, outside of peoples' minds. A corporation is no more a person or a citizen than an imaginary country in a madman's head is a geopolitical entity. This is true of all organizations. They're not things. They're organizational tools, that help other individuals address and work with groups acting in congregate. To date, outside of Citizen's United, tools and cognitive shortcuts have not been allowed the legal protection of free speech, only the individuals that use those tools and shortcuts. That we have given a imaginary entity non-imaginary rights that actively infringe on the rights of non-imaginary entities is entirely mind boggling.

Corps neither speak nor write. They can't communicate in any method whatsoever. It makes no bloody sense to give free speech protections to something that cannot practice free speech. As we see with terribly clarity, doing so allows individuals to do some frankly terribly shit by hiding behind their imaginary shield.

We should have laws protecting how we deal with people who are working in aggregate toward a particular goal or goals, yes, of course, but calling that group an individual and treating it as an individual citizen is not how you do it by any sane measure.

Ah, but the corporation DOES sue people. You wouldn't say "A variety of people in an organization that produces fast food known as McDonalds sued a variety of people in an organization that produces shoes called Nike", you would say "Mcdonalds sued Nike". You would NOT say "Rover bit Jane, so Rover hired a defense attorney and will be standing trial this Tuesday".

We keep coming back to this issue, and both the Constitution (from a literal reading) and the court case are against you on this one.
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Are you arguing that one's ability to sue is what gives the claim legitimacy?

Guess I should hire my dog a lawyer next time angry neighbors complain.

Sentience helps, too. Would you sue a tea kettle for noise pollution, or a boombox, or a really obnoxious MP3 file? Would you file charges against a baseball bat for being an accomplice in breaking your nose? Would you sue a gun for murder (guns kill people, lol)?

Your dog would probably appreciate having a lawyer, though, as well as free speech. After all, if it had such benefits, it would pollute the environment, exploit its workers cats, single handedly takeover the government, and violate the civil rights of people in the third world. Or at least, that's what I've been told would happen.

1084
Well there has to be a limit as to what that applies to. Otherwise dogs couldn't be locked up for barking; they're just practicing their freedom of speech. As far as I know, everyone draws that line at "people." (EDIT: Well, "citizens" would probably be more accurate now that I think about it. And of course organizations aren't citizens.)

Dogs won't sue you if they are locked up for practicing their freedom of speech, nor will their lawyers go after you if you don't read them their Miranda Rights before sending them to the pound.
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Wait, wait, wait....we have a conversation going on here between EveryZig and GreatJustice.  ???

WTF, is this Socratic dialogue as brought to you by Zero Wing? 

Well now there's a coincidence if I've ever seen one.

1085
General Discussion / Re: What is the best...Film?
« on: July 25, 2012, 06:11:51 pm »
Stalingrad and Das Boot were pretty great, but then they're German so I suppose they don't count. Gonna say Sherlock Holmes (the first, though the second wasn't all that bad).


1086
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And what message could they possibly need free speech for that 1, isn't lying about their products, or 2, has nothing to do with what their business is doing?

Well in the case of Citizens United, a non-profit organization wanted to make a documentary with a negative portrayal of Hillary Clinton. However, according to previous election laws, they were not allowed to do so during election season. After the decision was made in their favour, they were free to put aforementioned film on cable TV.

Before the ruling, corporations/nonprofits/unions/etc were just as free to spend money influencing elections, they just had to do it through those trusty news corporations.
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I would really, really like you to point out where I "ignored that before".

You have said, every single time in reference the ruling, that it effects "Corporations". Every attack on my argument is based on this only applying to corporations. Case in point:
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And what message could they possibly need free speech for that 1, isn't lying about their products, or 2, has nothing to do with what their business is doing?

-Non profits do not make products
-Unions do not make products (unless you count higher union wages as a product which is some weird wording)
-Non profits are not businesses
-Unions are businesses, but that question basically answers itself so I highly doubt you were applying it in that sense

Even the ACLU was pretty much in favour of this one, just sayin'.
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Taking the postulate "organizations aren't people, thus don't have rights associated with people" to its logical conclusion, does not mean they can't do anything at all, or be blamed for things. It just means the laws relating to them can be extremely arbitrary. So basically, what we have now, only Congress/etc could make whatever the hell law they wanted instead of stumbling around with this half personhood silliness. Laws would be argued as to their practicality* rather than constitutionality.



*Well obviously they wouldn't be practical, because practicality is the last thing on a representative's mind, long behind appeasing their constituents. But that's beside the point.

To say that organizations are people is rather silly, but the fact of the matter is that the First Amendment covers organizations just as much as individuals. Lets look at the 1st Amendment again, in whole:
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Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.

Notice how it says "CONGRESS SHALL MAKE NO LAW... ABRIDGING THE FREEDOM OF SPEECH". That's fairly unambiguous language.

Now answer me this: which is more practical, having the FEC decide who can have freedom of speech under what circumstances, or simply considering speech from all (domestic, obviously) sources to be covered under the 1st Amendment?

1087
Actually, if you look at it from that angle, then corporations have always been considered people. When laws are broken, etc then the corporation itself is generally accused, not the people owning it.
Yet you never see one in jail.

Would have to be a pretty big jail to fit a corporation inside.
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What would a company possibly even use "free speech" for?

To promote a particular message? Again, especially these days (with blogs and so on), the difference between a government designated "media corporation" and a regular one is very small.

You also, again, ignore that the decision also covers

-Labour unions
-Non profit organizations
-Small businesses that happen to be registered as corporations
-etc etc etc

1088
Corporations are people when it comes to benefits, but not people on the days they may be liable for something (e.g. if they cause a death they don't get charged with manslaughter / murder, and lawyers last year argued to the Supreme Court that corporations weren't people when it came to whether or not a corporation is legally responsible for genocide it's funded or committed in it's name by employees).

Actually, if you look at it from that angle, then corporations have always been considered people. When laws are broken, etc then the corporation itself is generally accused, not the people owning it.
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Just posting this here before I leave for school.

First of all, that guy is reminding me heavily of a certain character from a Eugen Richter book.
Second, he seems to have a way of saying, offhandedly, variations of "Oh, by the way, the government just kinda gave them the land by stealing it, carrying on" without really addressing it, like the government is a force of nature or something. Have to say his solutions and identified problems are distinctly unradical.

1089
Companies aren't people. They don't have the right to free speech.

Quote from: The United States Constitution, 1st Amendment
Congress shall make no law.

So yeah, they do have a right to free speech.

I also find it priceless that anyone would argue that certain huge corporations (and labour unions, but no one talks about them) shouldn't be allowed freedom of speech, but other huge corporations (Specifically, news corporations) are allowed to be gigantic propaganda factories on the basis on specifically making money from it.

1090
That's how the market works with copy right laws. Without them, one company will just bribe an employee of the other to share the product with them, and then start to sell the products themselves.

Which would be breaking the law in an entirely different way. "We can't get rid of this law because then people would break an entirely different law and that would cause problems" is not a valid argument.

1091
A hypothetical situation that relies on my understanding of copyright law and those who are against it:

At some point in the future, a food company breeds a new variety of fish. This fish is fast-growing, easy to care for, and most importantly of all is tasty and nutritious. This effort takes years and quite a lot of money.

Shortly after the fish is announced and the fish farms are set up, a rival company manages to steal a few breeding pairs and breed his own fish, who breed more fish, etc. Those are given to other companies, who breed and pass them on, etc. Now pretty much everyone has a fish of their own and the original company made zero profit off of the time and money spent.

Now, fish aren't digital downloads or whatever, but is it really so bad for an artist to ask for appreciation and compensation for his/her/their work? Yes, a number of products have been successful despite being free, but I'm fairly certain that they are the exception, not the rule, and either the makers of those products have to pursue a career (thus lowering productivity) or they subsist on donations like Toady.

Like I implied at the beginning, copyright law is not my strongpoint.

In that case, the other company in question stole the fish outright. Similarly, I wouldn't be in favour of breaking into stores and stealing hard copies of Diablo III, either.

A more apt analogy would be the one company developing the wonderfish, followed by the other company observing them and trying to figure out how to make them themselves (Which could take a while). For a while, the developers have a clear-cut advantage, but eventually other companies start to make the same fish.

Patents and copyright still don't make much sense. Yes, an innovating company loses its monopoly once another company figures out how to do what they do cheaper and/or with higher quality. That's how the market works. Such companies still have the massive advantage of starting off with the new product, and it will doubtless take time for others to get around to copying them and improving on things, meaning they still get rewarded for innovation.

Meanwhile, with patents and copyright, you create minefields that no one wants to navigate without a small army of lawyers since they might accidentally infringe on someone else's obscure work and get sued to all hell or they might put all their effort into inventing something only to get one-upped by a "submarine patent" and have to pay someone who did jack all for "permission" to use their "idea".
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As for Paul:
What else could 'private property rights on the internet' possible mean? It's a euphemism for copyright law. You don't own a car on the internet. You don't own land on the internet. Unless he's talking about swords in your MMO, which I highly doubt, he is talking specifically about copyright laws.

Paypal, Bitcoin, buying stuff from Amazon (which, might I mention, moved states due to taxes), etc etc etc

It's worth mentioning that whenever Ron Paul talks about "protecting private property", he generally means that in the context of "against the government". I haven't seen many cases of him standing up for copyright on any occasion.
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 Hell, just the sheer fact that he does not rail against the dangers of the overly strict copyright law shows he is for it; you can't simply ignore something of that magnitude in a document about internet "freedom" unless you are actively supporting it!

Now that isn't playing fair. Yeah, he doesn't regularly rail against copyright. He's busy railing against the Fed, foreign wars, the drug wars, taxes, gun laws, etc etc etc. Its worth noting that other progressive "ideal" types like Al Gore, Bernie Sanders, Dennis Kucinich, Obama himself (though I honestly see him more as a fascist), and so on basically never rail against copyright, but I don't see you accusing them of being lackeys for corporations on the issue of copyright.

1092
A money 'black hole': rich hide at least $21 trillion in tax havens, study shows
So in addition to the link I added earlier...
Apple hiding billions in profits from taxes for years

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Apple may pay some corporate income taxes on that profit to the country where it sells the iPad, but it minimizes these by using various accounting moves to shift profits to countries with low tax rates. For example the strategy known as "Double Irish With a Dutch Sandwich," routes profits through Irish and Dutch subsidiaries and then to the Caribbean.

The US government should deal with this in the traditional way, via drone strikes on the Caribbean.
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No it isn't. Ron Paul has maintained a consistent position of total personal freedoms at the federal level and none at the state level and total economic freedom regardless. Economic freedom means that the government protect business interests, such as corporate speech and copyrights. 

Corporate speech falls under free speech, but that's something different entirely.

Copyright is not economic freedom, it's economic tyranny. Copyrights are economic freedom like terrorist attacks are stimulus packages.

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You wouldn't steal a baby?

Stealing babies is crime.

Piracy.

Is.

Crime.

Criminal scum.

I dunno, I have to wonder if stealing babies is crimes sometimes.


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Would you copy a baby?

You just made my signature, bro

1093
But he said, and I quote: "protect private property rights on the Internet".

Private property rights are not free speech, and digital property on the internet can only be protected from widespread copying through copyright law. Hence the idea of copy rights.

I prefer copyleft, personally. If I ever release a work on the internet, I'm copylefting it.

I don't know. I'm not Ron Paul. I heavily doubt that he's spontaneously declaring that he wants to crack down on the internets on behalf of copyright-infringed corporations, since that would be a complete 180 from most of the things he's done so far.

By the way, I honestly think copyrighting/patenting is nonsense. You steal property by taking the item in question, depriving the owner of its use (eg. if I take your TV, you no longer have a TV and thus have lost the equivalent value), but if I "steal" a song the owner hasn't lost anything at all. 

1094
Well....what else could it mean?

People's rights to do what they want on the internet without the government being a pain?

I doubt copyright comes into it. He pretty much always votes against SOPA-like bills when they come up (and makes a pretty big deal about it when he does)

1095
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And on the paulites stuff:
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shore up "private property rights on the Internet."
Uh huh. So he wants to push for more copyright & anti-piracy laws. Uh, yeah, fuck that guy.
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Well now that's not a wild assumption or anything

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