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Messages - GreatJustice

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1246
General Discussion / Re: American Election Megathread
« on: February 04, 2012, 03:47:53 pm »
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It completely prohibits the court from ruling on the constitutionality of those laws and directly removes the only method to challenge the constitutionality of those laws. If the laws are unconstitutional, this law removes the ability for those laws to be struck down. It is extremely explicitly clear that the sole purpose if this law is to allow states to pass unconstitutional laws without recourse for contest.

Show me a state constitution that doesn't prevent a state government from instituting an official religion. That's hardly a realistic fear, and furthermore the SC, by definition, only has jurisdiction in federal matters, of which marriage, religion, and abortion are not. Were the states to actually violate the BoRs, then they would be prosecuted based on their actual violations, not on their perceived violations (in other words, abortion would be entirely left to the states, so a very liberal SC couldn't decree that Louisiana could be prosecuted for banning abortion and an arch-conservative SC couldn't prosecute Oregon for allowing abortion, but overstepping the boundaries by, say, preventing discussion of abortion would violate the 1st and would be an entirely different issue).

This bill is mostly for the purpose of preventing the SC from creating "rights" out of thin air on issues that the Federal government has little ground on. Abortion, for example, isn't mentioned anywhere in the constitution, so by the 10th it goes to the states. If the federal govt wants to cover it, it has to pass a constitutional amendment to go with it (and good luck with passing an amendment on abortion).


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It doesn't matter if a law is unconstitutional if the courts can't rule on it. The We the People Act explicitly denies federal courts (including the Supreme Court) from ruling on laws concerning those issues, meaning if a state wants a law that is flagrantly unconstitutional, it can get away with enforcing it. What part of this don't you understand? Yes, the constitution overrides state law, but that doesn't make a damn bit of different if nobody can actually enforce the constitution. Literally the only way for the constitution to override state law is for court to rule that those laws violate the constitution, and Ron Paul's legislation explicitly denies them that ability. I'm sorry if I'm being combative here, but it's like you're being obtuse for no reason about this.

See above. If they ARE violating the constitution, then whether it is related to abortion, marriage, etc is irrelevant since the reasons for prosecution come down to the actual unconstitutional actions, rather than the issues themselves that are left to the states under the 10th. It doesn't prevent the courts from prosecuting 1st amendment violations, it prevents them from prosecuting states for perceived violations of SC-created rights (be it life or abortion). If the states actually did something unconstitutional relating to the issues, the issues themselves wouldn't be the problem so much as the unconstitutional action (and no, no amount of SC claims will somehow add abortion to the list of federally decided issues, it takes an amendment for that).
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See: Anti-sodomy state laws prior to 2003. In 2003, they were struck down by SCOTUS. If SCOTUS couldn't or wouldn't have done that, as would be the case under Ron Paul's legislation, those laws would still be enforceable. Those federal courts are literally the only thing capable of telling the states that their unconstitutional laws cannot be enforced or maintained, and Ron Paul's legislation very, very, very explicitly tells them that they can't rule on the constitutionality of state law.

It has four narrowly defined areas in which the SC has its power limited, and all of which are distinctly unmentioned in the constitution (marriage and privacy). Anti-sodomy laws are indeed stupid, but nominally aren't under federal jurisdiction as there isn't any federally granted right to privacy. There should be, but then it should be passed through congress as allowing the SC to unilaterally create rights is a very slippery slope that could just as easily go in the other direction. Again, if something is prosecutable directly under the BoRs, then the underlying issue (marriage, abortion, etc) is irrelevant to the actual violation.
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To summarize the critique of Krugman:

One should never hope for an economic recovery because if the economy recovers it might go down again afterwards.

It would be cute that the Paulites have such a basic lack of a grasp of economics were it not so disturbing.

It would be cute that the Keynesians have such a lack of basic economic knowledge were it not so disturbing.

Krugman was hoping for a recovery, and he characterized a "recovery" by the grounds of the recreation of an economic bubble.

1247
General Discussion / Re: American Election Megathread
« on: February 04, 2012, 12:14:44 am »
Oh my. This deserves a long talk, but I think its worth mentioning that a "robust recovery" and "strong economy" have been pumped ever since 2001 with Krugman advocating the creation of a housing bubble to boost spending. The economy's fundamentals are terrible: a very large amount of money has been printed (digitally, mind), but it sitting in banks because they aren't willing to lend yet; Europe, Japan, and China are all rapidly running into problems; foreign oil is threatened by a war in the Gulf, etc etc

You and I apparently live in entirely different universes.
Krugman in fact warned about a housing bubble as it was forming:
http://www.nytimes.com/2005/08/08/opinion/08krugman.html
And you are taking him massively out of context when he deliberately said that the Fed should not create a housing bubble:
http://www.nytimes.com/2002/08/02/opinion/dubya-s-double-dip.html?pagewanted=1

And then you engage in the typical behavior of anyone who wants to attack the mainstream: throw a bunch of scary stuff against the wall without explanation and count on some of it to stick because people have genuinely no clue what you are saying.

The irony of the fact that you would portray Krugman's statements as being the diametric opposite of what they were yet claim that your chosen candidate is lied about and maligned isn't lost on me.

On the contrary, if you actually read the article, Krugman follows up the "create a housing bubble statement" with:
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Judging by Mr. Greenspan's remarkably cheerful recent testimony, he still thinks he can pull that off. But the Fed chairman's crystal ball has been cloudy lately; remember how he urged Congress to cut taxes to head off the risk of excessive budget surpluses? And a sober look at recent data is not encouraging.

That isn't "Ha ha, what an idiot, trying to create a bubble", that's "He thinks he can, but he's not succeeding".

Krugman has a very long list of stupid things said, which is ironic since he talks about outside of his columns regarding free trade, etc are actually not that bad. Anyhow, here's a small list of him advocating things that led to the crash:

http://www.pkarchive.org/global/welt.html
http://www.pkarchive.org/column/5201.html
http://www.pkarchive.org/economy/ML082201.html

Fun quotes (Please don't insist that Krugman has a long history of drily supporting the creation of bubbles and providing arguments in the favour ironically, these aren't out of context as the sources show):

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“KRUGMAN: I think frankly it’s got to be — business investment is not going to be the driving force in this recovery. It has to come from things like housing, things that have not been (UNINTELLIGIBLE).

DOBBS: We see, Paul, housing at near record levels, we see automobile purchases near record levels. The consumer is still very much in this economy. Can he or she — or I should say he and she, can they bring back this economy?

KRUGMAN: Well, as far as the arithmetic goes, yes, it is possible. Will the Fed cut interest rates enough? Will long-term rates fall enough to get the consumer, get the housing sector there in time? We don’t know”
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“During phases of weak growth there are always those who say that lower interest rates will not help. They overlook the fact that low interest rates act through several channels. For instance, more housing is built, which expands the building sector. You must ask the opposite question: why in the world shouldn’t you lower interest rates?”
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“Post-terror nerves aside, what mainly ails the U.S. economy is too much of a good thing. During the bubble years businesses overspent on capital equipment; the resulting overhang of excess capacity is a drag on investment, and hence a drag on the economy as a whole.

In time this overhang will be worked off. Meanwhile, economic policy should encourage other spending to offset the temporary slump in business investment. Low interest rates, which promote spending on housing and other durable goods, are the main answer. But it seems inevitable that there will also be a fiscal stimulus package”

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Greatjustice:
1: DOMA also forbids the federal government from providing marriage benefits to its employees, serving or retired veterans, for tax and all other purposes, etc, even if they are legally married in a state that allows same sex marriages.

Section motherfucking 3:


http://www.huffingtonpost.com/david-groshoff/ron-paul-homophobic_b_1171695.html

Ahem:
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While Ron Paul stated that he supports DOMA, DOMA is a complex law. Evidencing DOMA's complexity is the pro-queer legal community's general strategy of attacking DOMA Section 3, not DOMA's entirety.

Because I could find nothing in which Paul specifically addressed DOMA Section 3 rather than DOMA in its entirety (including legislative history, as Paul wasn't a member of Congress during the DOMA vote), I requested comment from the Paul campaign on short notice. I did not receive a response prior to submitting this piece. (I'll include an update should I receive a response.)

My guess is that if specifically asked regarding support for DOMA Section 3, Paul would answer no. My further suspicion is that since he supports most of DOMA, Paul can justify saying that he supports DOMA, enabling him to pander to the party primary base.

Even if Paul supports DOMA entirely, President Clinton signed all of DOMA into law, despite being hailed as possibly having "courted the gay vote" more than any other prior candidate. President Clinton's campaign messages didn't equate with his "voting" as president.

So (A) One particular part is a problem but the rest isn't, making it justifiable to a point (I recall Paul saying he objected to small details of the CRAs, but still would have supported them with reservations due to the rest being fine) and (B) If you're going to lambast Paul for it, you're going to have to lambast the senate, the house, and President Clinton as being equally racist/homophobic/etc. If you are willing to admit that Clinton is a racist and homophobe and should be called out for it, then I'll give up right here and now. Otherwise, you're using double standards and shame on you.
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2: The source for Ron Paul's legislative attempt to repeal the supreme courts ability to rule state laws unconstitutional? Its the god damn WE THE PEOPLE act that i have linked on page 5 of this thread. http://www.independentamericanparty.org/2011/09/1949/

Which limits the courts by link to the tenth amendment, not literally striking down all of their power (seeing as how that is probably the biggest thing they do, that would be more or less the same as simple abolition of the courts).

It also limits them in a handful of specified ways, not "THE COURTS ARE NOT ALLOWED TO INTERVENE". Most of them (privacy, etc) are things that are already covered by constitutional limits (the 4th, the 5th, etc etc) that the federal government (thanks to the SC might I add) is far more willing to bend. Even the "establishment of a religion" clause isn't especially powerful; again, the constitution overrides state laws, so either it would literally be an altogether symbolic thing or it would be unconstitutional under the first amendment, among others. Next.

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I already gave you the source for all of this. It's the "We the People Act". Could you at least try here?

Finished, see above. The constitution overrides state laws, and this doesn't change that in the slightest (it doesn't even damage the power of the SC in any major terms).

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I have. You ignore it, and continue to ask for "sources" that I've already given.

I make an effort to find every statement and cover it in some regard. If I haven't, its probably because I haven't seen it.

1248
General Discussion / Re: American Election Megathread
« on: February 03, 2012, 07:58:59 pm »
Like how your constitution explicitly says it should be? You also ignore that there are any number of things that prevent state governments from going too far, most of which don't do a damn thing when your federal government oversteps its boundaries.
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Er, Ron Paul wants to dismantle the things that "prevent state governments from going too far". Actively. I've named one.

The constitution and the right to vote? The first restrains the state governments in a way that the federal government is good at ignoring (if the likes of SOPA, ACTA and the PATRIOT act among others are anything to go by), and the second limits it further to being responsible to those it controls. Frankly, if the result of state governments having more power than the federal government was state governments engaging in clownery, then I find it unlikely that the average American will somehow make the federal government much better.
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Also: Ron Paul wants to override anything the constitution says about state law (regarding certain subjects). Let me put it this way: The only way the constitutionality of legislation can be maintained is through the courts stepping in and saying when something isn't constitutional. Ron Paul wants to remove that protection.

Source, please.
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And I'm sorry, but no, the constitution does not explicitly state that states should specifically be left to their own devices regarding issues of civil rights and, say, establishment of religion. Hell, there are certain amendments that, according to the generally-held interpretations, state otherwise, such as the 14th.

Again, the constitution overrides state laws. That's a widely agreed upon fact; were that not the case, the US would be a confederation or alliance, not a union.

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He supported DOMA for those reasons.
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Why would he support DOMA? DOMA was defining marriage at the federal level, which sounds like exactly the sort of thing he'd be against.

Wrong, wrong, wrong. You misread it. From Wikipedia:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Defense_of_marriage_act
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Under the law, no U.S. state (or other political subdivision) may be required to recognize as a marriage a same-sex relationship considered a marriage in another state

So in other words, no US state is forced to recognize gay marriage, but it notably does NOT say that no US state CAN recognize gay marriage. Seeing as how it was signed into law by Bill Clinton AND several American states do, in fact, have gay marriage laws already, its rather silly to claim this somehow does such a thing regarding marriage.

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I'm saying that, in addition to being 70, his dislike of homosexuals in utterly irrelevant because (A) unless he inexplicably betrayed his own principles he'd never act on it at all
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He already has acted on it. I've specifically mentioned the legislation that acts on it.

Two things:

A. When referring to past statements regarding specific things (EG. DOMA), at least mention them so I know what you're talking about. I really hate to get into long, drawn out arguments about the wrong issue.

B. As shown above, DOMA doesn't force the states to do anything and thus your statement is untrue.

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it kills me to watch you vote for absolute crooks like Barack Obama and Mitt Romney over silly details and conspiracy theories.
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Do you know what I dislike most about Ron Paul? It's not conspiracy theories. It's not even those newsletters. It's his actual policies and attitudes and the legislation he's written and tried to pass. Don't try to make us sound like tinfoil-hat crackpots when we're giving very explicit and clear reasons for disliking him.

Really? Then why don't you attack him on his issues or his actual problems, rather than digging up extremely suspect "evidence" and primarily sticking to attacking him personally?

I dislike Obama very strongly too, but mostly because he's a fascist that I actually believed might be a bit better than Bush (at least for the couple of months before he actually did anything) and wasn't owned by corrupt banks. It was stupid of me to not even check his donations, but after the recession I figured things couldn't get too much worse.

However, I have yet to start claiming that Obama was born in Kenya or any such nonsense, and it would be disingenuous of me to attack him specifically on such a silly issue when there are far more glaring faults to go after.
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Yeah dude, even if he hadn't had his picture taken with the founder of Stormfront, knowing full well who he was, his actual policies are little more than trying to shift America towards a minarchist Hellhole.

He's a presidential candidate, I'd imagine he takes pictures with a lot of people, not to mention autograph signing and giving interviews (He isn't especially picky about who interviews him either; he was "interviewed" by Bruno, and by some college kid in his dorm). I doubt he keeps a photo album of "public enemies" to memorize for people not to take pictures with.

Minarchist hellhole, now that's a new one. What, like Hong Kong? I can't think of many minarchies these days, or examples of minarchist hellholes. "The Minarchists are taking over the government and doing nothing with it! Oh the humanity!"
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You could vote for the Green Party who hates the war ondrugs, the other war, pollution, and is fairly solidly pro-rights.  Without the recurring ties with racists or "if someone is molested by their employer, they have the right to find a different job if they don't want to put up with it- otherwise they're partially to blame!" abhorrence.

Well, first and foremost, American third parties have literally no relevance. Besides that, the Greens are very much collectivist and, in my (limited, at least, to non-Americans) are rather unpleasant people with the idea that if only the evil corporations were stopped the world would be nicer.
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I think this deserves repeating.  Even if he isn't racist, he writes and supports legislation that will massively harm black people.  Even if he isn't homophobic, he writes and supports legislation that will massively harm homosexual people.  And that's before getting into his horrible economic ideas, and that his possible one USP to end the war on drugs would definitely not work since almost noone inside or outside of his party supports it.

Yes, he massively hurts black people by opposing the war on drugs (which is responsible for an overwhelming number of black imprisonments) and opposing the foreign adventures (which is responsible for an overwhelming number of black deaths, not counting those of foreigners who Americans don't seem to give a damn about). He massively hurts homosexuals, yet his largest donator (of almost a million dollars, actually) is actually gay himself. Go figure.

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So there's your better showing for Paul, GreatJustice. Still doesn't change the fact that Romney is going to wax the floor with everyone else in this state, which is unsurprising. The state has some Big Money and a hefty number of Mormons. Might bode slightly better for Paul's chances to continue if he at least takes 3rd place.


I'll get to it later, but its worth mentioning that the polls of the caucus states were remarkably unreliable. Go check the RCP average, but I'll put it up tomorrow if you want. Nevada was a prime example:

-It showed Paul with 7% in 3rd/4th, he came 2nd with 14%

-It showed Romney barely ahead by 5%, he won by something like 20-30%

-It showed Huckabee and McCain as serious competitors when they actually lost to Paul

etc etc. Maybe the pollsters have found a better way to poll Nevada, but I find it unlikely. I guess we'll find out, eh?
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The Bureau of LaborStatistics  released it's monthly report and said that the economy added 243,000 jobs last month.  Also the seasonally adjusted unemployment rate fell to %.2 to %8.3 (seasonally adjusted means that they account for the Christmas boom and post Christmas bust).  Another 1.2 million workers left the workforce so they no longer count as unemployed (due to the end of the Christmas boom and the weak economy presumably).

This is being hailed in the economy nerd circles of the internet as being "real" good news instead of just "meh" good news like we've had in the past.  The economy needs to add about 100k jobs a month just to keep pace with population growth.  But the economy outpaced that by a fairly substantial clip and did so without being attributed to the usual cyclical noise of inventory bounces or seasonal adjustment.  Also interesting is that the BLS revised it's two previous monthly estimates upward (they issue revisions on the previous two months every report) in keeping with it's yearlong trend of revising upward it's pessimistic initial estimates.  Unless something comes along to knock us off trend, this year is going to be where it starts feeling like a real recovery.

This is election related because if things keep going at this pace then things look good for the left.  Obama's reelection odds will pick up and the democrats even have a shot at retaking the house.  If the trend keeps improving like this then Obama would probably be a shoe in.  In that case we might even see the Democrats hang onto the Senate despite having so many seats to defend.  Elections aren't just determined by the economy but the economy is probably the GOP's only shot this election.  What else do they have?  Foreign policy against the administration that nabbed Osama and ended the wars?  Beat a dead horse over culture war?

Oh my. This deserves a long talk, but I think its worth mentioning that a "robust recovery" and "strong economy" have been pumped ever since 2001 with Krugman advocating the creation of a housing bubble to boost spending. The economy's fundamentals are terrible: a very large amount of money has been printed (digitally, mind), but it sitting in banks because they aren't willing to lend yet; Europe, Japan, and China are all rapidly running into problems; foreign oil is threatened by a war in the Gulf, etc etc

Again, if you want I can go into this more but I'm a bit rushed presently.

---- STUFF HERE ----

I'd get to it, but again, I'm rushed. Sorry! Get to it in a later post tomorrow if I can :(

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Regardless, in terms of realistic outcomes, we should probably talk about who actually has a probable chance of snagging the Republican nomination.  The current field is so staticy with both Newt and Romney thrashing each other (and themselves) that it's hard to tell who exactly is pulling ahead in a general sense.

Its going to be Romney, guaranteed. It was basically always likely to be him. He has the money and is "next in line". He'll be nominated, and if there is a God the economy won't crash until Obama is nominated a second time because Romney presiding over the inevitable crash would be infinitely worse than Obama doing the same.

1249
General Discussion / Re: American Election Megathread
« on: February 03, 2012, 07:42:09 am »
A COOL STRAWMAN

Arguing that because the white supremacists Ron Paul associates with aren't 'well known in the general public', it's excusable for Ron Paul to hang out with them as if he's some poor misguided Mr. Magoo, completely ignores the fact that not that many normal Americans are probably that informed about movers and shakers in the white power community.  The men he holds conference calls with, the men he plays golf with, are very truly racists of the most deplorable kind.  Anyone who willfully associates with them, leaning on them for support, is shameful.  The man has had his name attached to a violently racist newsletter, has had ties with racist organizations both in the past and recently, and has expressed that the freedom he seeks is the freedom to be exploited and terrorized by a local government, rather than a federal one.  (he is even inconsistent on this point, seeking a federal ban on abortion, but wanting states to be able to disregard a federal acceptance of gay marriage.)  These are all damning truths.  Arguing that he's 70, and should thereby be excused of having a strong, recurring dislike of homosexuals, denies that there are people out there that also want economic, social, and drug reform, that don't simultaneously harbor the serious problems Ron Paul has.

Way to miss a huge part of the point.

He has associations with racists on occasion primarily because he doesn't know that they are, and he's hardly had long secret meetings with their leaders.

To assume that this is remotely true, you have to take a huge leap of logic in that you have to assume the words of a rather unhinged (from what he's tried in the past, anyway) white supremacist should be taken at complete face value, as though he never has and never will exaggerate in any way or outright lie. If hacks of German Neo-nazi sites had emails of similarly insane individuals claiming to have had secret meetings with the CDU, I doubt anyone would take them seriously.

Besides that,
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The man has had his name attached to a violently racist newsletter

Which was "violently racist" for eight issues and had absolutely no connection to anything else he ever said.
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has had ties with racist organizations both in the past and recently

Again, Obama was endorsed by the Communists and received their donations. This is not a legitimate "tie", nor are the deranged rantings claiming to be buddies of random e-racists.
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and has expressed that the freedom he seeks is the freedom to be exploited and terrorized by a local government

Like how your constitution explicitly says it should be? You also ignore that there are any number of things that prevent state governments from going too far, most of which don't do a damn thing when your federal government oversteps its boundaries.
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(he is even inconsistent on this point, seeking a federal ban on abortion, but wanting states to be able to disregard a federal acceptance of gay marriage.)

Uh, no he doesn't. He wants to overturn Roe vs Wade and turn it into a state issue, which is entirely reasonable. He has even taken shots from goons like Santorum for not wanting to just ban it outright. He supported DOMA for those reasons.
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Arguing that he's 70, and should thereby be excused of having a strong, recurring dislike of homosexuals, denies that there are people out there that also want economic, social, and drug reform, that don't simultaneously harbor the serious problems Ron Paul has.

No, that wasn't my entire argument by any means. Stop cherry picking.

I'm saying that, in addition to being 70, his dislike of homosexuals in utterly irrelevant because (A) unless he inexplicably betrayed his own principles he'd never act on it at all and (B) Literally every single candidate has the same views or worse. Yes indeed there are better alternatives than Ron Paul; I hardly think he's the Messiah. But he's easily the best politician you Americans have, and it kills me to watch you vote for absolute crooks like Barack Obama and Mitt Romney over silly details and conspiracy theories. The only "better" candidate in that regard is Obama, and he's a crooked murderer with big rhetoric but a lack of a spinal cord.

1250
General Discussion / Re: American Election Megathread
« on: February 03, 2012, 12:14:27 am »
Ron Paul strikes me as an American Nick Griffin, the head of the British National Party. As the country descends into shit, his ideas become more and more appealing, as it becomes clear that something radical has to be done to get the country back on track. His supporters were originally a hard-core of racists and nutjobs, but have gradually expanded to include otherwise fairly rational people who just desire change at any cost more than anything else. He was once considered a fringe lunatic, but eventually expanded his power-base to the point that he could be considered a real contender. The previous paragraph could apply to either Nick or Ron.

But eventually the bubble has to burst. The more exposure Ron Paul gets, the more his views are going to come under scrutiny. For Nick Griffin the bubble burst when he had finally gained enough support to be considered politically important enough to appear on "Question Time". At this point the whole country got to see first-hand what his views and policies actually were. There are clips on youtube, but suffice to say he made an arse of himself and the BNP more-or-less fell back into obscurity.

That said, Nick could probably do well as a Republican...

Nick Griffin is only on the right socially, a bit like Le Pen in France. He's very much a lefty on economic issues, and seeing as how Ron Paul is 30% economic issues and 50% foreign policy/war issues, he would fit Paul's views rather poorly even were Paul a crazed supremacist. He'd be run out of the Republican party if the topic of discussion ever went near economic policy, actually.

Paul would, in British terms at least, be more likely to fit in with either the Liberals (the Orange wing at least, though he wouldn't be pro-Euro so not entirely), the Tories (though depending on what issue is at hand at the time, though Daniel Hannan is a good example of Ron Paul's ideas in Britain), or the UKIP (with the non-interventionist/isolationist/what-have-you undertones).

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Sure, but it's slightly different if Chuck Norris himself gives you authorization to do so.

But were I writing crazy things from the "viewpoint" of Chuck Norris while Chuck Norris was on vacation or busy beating up fools, then the crazy things written would be showing that Chuck Norris made a bad decision in letting me write and not keeping a close enough eye on his publications, not that he was as insane as I (the ghostwriter). Furthermore, the relevance of the crazy things written in Chuck Norris's name would decline after two decades of him doing heroic things and distinctly not following through with what the handful of newsletters did.

Of course, by this point the analogy starts to look kinda silly, but whatever.

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You don't need those letters to call Ron Paul a homophobe. There's plenty of other sources for that, at least!

Way to change the subject there, bro

He's a homophobe in the sense that he personally dislikes it. Sad to say it, but it's true. On the other hand, every single other Republican running dislikes homosexuals even more (GAYS IN THE MILITARY anyone?), and unlike Paul, are entirely willing to use the government to screw around with them. While disliking them (and considering the fact that he's a good 73 years old, its hardly much worse than most grandparents), his live and let live philosophy would mean that he would absolutely protect their rights.
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It's bad enough management that it still reflects very poorly on his character and ability to... well, manage anything. Qualities a president should have.

He was retired from politics, and at the time it looked like he was going to spend the rest of his life as a doctor before retiring. Then stuff happened and he changed his mind, returning to Congress to rant about an incoming housing bubble (ho ho!), the war in Iraq being an insane endeavor without any potential gain (What a nutty idea!), and that maybe bombing and killing people in their countries isn't a good way to fight terrorism (Insane, I tell you!).

Considering the circumstances, it still leaves him leaps and bounds above literally every single alternative.

----

I'm sad to say, though, that even were the bulk of the bad things said about him actually true (being a racist, etc), he'd still easily be the best of the pack. So long as he didn't let them affect his policy (him being an actual crook or not holding to his values would be a whole different ballgame, but I have yet to see anyone claim THAT so far), it would be outweighed by the end of stupid American foreign interventions, the extension of American hegemony to the rest of the world, less blustering and threatening, more negotiating, and an economic policy not purely directed by massive banks to boot. Hell, just pulling out of those bases would make it worth it. Mind, I'm not American so my priorities are a bit different, but he would still be far ahead of the alternatives.

With the Republicans, Mitt Romney is for sale to the highest bidder, lacks any strong moral fibre, and would bend over to whatever major interests wanted to control him. He'd probably lose to Obama unless the worst circumstances happened though, since I can't see Mitt freaking Romney getting out dedicated voters the way literally any other Republican could.

Newt Gingrich is also for sale to the highest bidder, but dresses it up in populist rhetoric and is personally a scumbag where Mitt is plastic. Not much different than Mitt except he'd probably lose by even larger margins.

Santorum, well, he's a bible thumping, war-mongering nut who hates the internet. He's authentic, but absolutely nuts in every sense.

Obama is ALREADY owned, specifically by Goldman Sachs and co. He's no communist, just a fascist in vaguely socialist clothing.

1251
General Discussion / Re: I like anime, do you like anime?
« on: February 02, 2012, 07:50:20 pm »
Any other suggestions?
Nope.  705 pages and we haven't been able to find any other animes we like.  Sad, really.

No need to be a ponce

1252
General Discussion / Re: American Election Megathread
« on: February 02, 2012, 07:49:33 pm »
I hate to break it to you but palling around with well known figureheads in white supremacist circles is an action.

Not well known by any means. Do you know who Kelso is?

If I were a white supremacist, I probably would.   Which is why I said "figureheads in white supremacist circles".

There are any number of wrong things with this statement, but two major ones:

(A) Seeing as how you say that it would only be in white supremacist circles that he's known, you imply that Ron Paul already knows him, therefore he's a white supremacist, therefore he associated with him making him a white supremacist. If he isn't known outside of such circles then any association Paul has with him (and it is extremely limited, basically Kelso posing with him for a photo) is irrelevant. I recall Paul also did something similar with a San Francisco pedophile without knowing who he was (Paul has rather poor luck with associations, but that's beside the point), and not many people claim it proves he's part of the worldwide pedophile conspiracy.

(B) You imply that "Kelso is a well known figure" is a proven statement. It most certainly isn't. Can you prove that he is? Maybe some previous exposure? I wouldn't know, but otherwise this article is about as worthwhile as one of those "RON PAUL SUPPORTERS ON THE INTERNET SAY ELECTION WAS RIGGED" articles you find every once in a while.

Here's something for you in the meantime:

http://www.vancouverobserver.com/blogs/politicaljunkie/2012/02/02/lynching-ron-paul?page=0,0

1253
General Discussion / Re: American Election Megathread
« on: February 02, 2012, 07:37:10 pm »
I hate to break it to you but palling around with well known figureheads in white supremacist circles is an action.

Not well known by any means. Do you know who Kelso is?

The only time I've heard of him before was when he was tossed out of CPAC by Paul supporters. He has a massive ego and very little relevance, bragging about "connections" that he obviously doesn't have and never backs up (those "top men" in Illinois and SoCal quite literally are unknown to any of the actual activists or campaigners in those states, etc). If you want I can provide a rather detailed wall of text covering most of this, but that isn't really necessary.

I could just as easily claim to have personally met with Evgeny Murov too, but were I someone with as silly a resume as Kelso I don't think anyone would take my claims seriously, even if emails were hacked showing that I made such claims.

1254
General Discussion / Re: I like anime, do you like anime?
« on: February 02, 2012, 07:22:37 pm »
Katanagatari is extremely well done, though that ending is
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Same with the Battle Royale manga.

On a somewhat less grim note, Summer Wars and The Girl who Leapt Through Time are both excellent IMO. Any other suggestions?

1255
General Discussion / Re: American Election Megathread
« on: February 02, 2012, 07:09:46 pm »
Really? Those newsletters written decades ago with little actual connection to the candidate himself are your example?
Quote
"Little actual connection"? I can tell you haven't read this thread. They were signed by him.

Autopen, a feature that many such magazines, etc feature.
Quote
They carried his name.

Indeed they do. Maclean's carries Maclean's name too, but that doesn't mean Maclean (who is, I recall, very much dead) personally wrote every article, or even supervised. Again, bad management, but not proof of racism by any means.

Quote
They were often written from his perspective.

So? I can write from the perspective of Chuck Norris. That doesn't constitute much in the way of proof.

But while on the subject, I can see you haven't read any of his other articles, or heard him speak or write at literally any other point. The newsletters in question weren't even remotely written in his style, which would be rather obvious were you actually comparing them to the thousands of non-racist ones from the past.
Quote
Yet somehow, they were both not written by him, not supported by him, and went unnoticed by him for at least a decade? How can you possibly find this reasonable?

It was a small time newsletter that he'd mostly lost interest in and effectively abandoned, seeing as how he was running his practice at the time. Again, bad management, and on its own it doesn't make much sense logically that he'd suddenly run a spate of about eight racist newsletters after previously showing no particular signs of being a racist and then stops them outright not much longer afterwards.

Quote
GreatJustice: read this thread. I already have links here for my assertions.

I have seen one source already, with incredibly weak connections and extremely long leaps of logic, which are about as long as the "Obama associated with a Communist" article (which you notably haven't even looked at, even though it isn't much more silly). I've been reading since page 80 and haven't seen much since then, and unless you can find a better source I don't think its very worthwhile to go all the way back to look for what amount to Daily Mail articles.

1256
General Discussion / Re: American Election Megathread
« on: February 02, 2012, 06:45:52 pm »
Really, that's your example?  A black-helicopter freak's "analysis" of Obama's book, written nearly a year before he was elected President?

I truly hope you were being satirical and I've merely misinterpreted a well-meaning joke.

Yes, they were all being satirical, making fun of some economist who was dead fucking serious that child-labor laws were unfair to children.

I know this is a long thread, but my advice to everyone is to hang around and pay attention, you pick it up eventually.

Really? Those newsletters written decades ago with little actual connection to the candidate himself are your example?

Again, I don't think Obama's a communist, I'm just exposing the poor logic being used here which can just as easily label Obama as one.

1257
General Discussion / Re: American Election Megathread
« on: February 02, 2012, 06:40:50 pm »
He happens to be supported by racists. That makes him no more racist then any other American politician.

About eight newsletters out of several thousand hand racist content, coincidentally occurring when he was actually running his medical practice. Poor management yes, but hardly proof of racism.

Obama is supported by communists, too. He was, after all supported by the American Communist party, the communist youth league, etc. Does this make him a communist? Hardly, but people don't seem to make the same connections with him as they do with Paul, despite the two being functionally no different.

Anonymous also claims that the organisation has links with Republican candidate Ron Paul. "We found a disturbingly high number of members who are also involved in campaigning for Ron Paul," the statement said, adding that Paul had regularly met with many party members and even engaged in conference calls with its board of directors.

Read more: http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/articles/290374/20120131/ron-paul-anonymous-neo-nazi-opblitzkrieg-antisec.htm#ixzz1lGobjR3x

Actually, how about you do some research instead of just being a fool, Ron Paul is a documented, verified white supremacist who has deep ties with neo-nazi organizations and funders, and also happens to golf and buddy around with the same people.

Go find me some documented evidence of Obama being a socialist/communist (doubt you could even name the difference) or just shut up. Misinformation such as yours leads to people like Grand Wizard Paul being able to silently stay in the national spotlight and act like a saint, while his real views and policies are hidden, as they would be disastrous to any nation, especially the US.

EVIL ME CLAIMING RAWN PAWL ISN'T AN EVIL RACIST

Ahem:
Quote
Anonymous also claims that the organisation has links with Republican candidate Ron Paul. "We found a disturbingly high number of members who are also involved in campaigning for Ron Paul," the statement said, adding that Paul had regularly met with many party members and even engaged in conference calls with its board of directors.

Notice "MEMBERS OF". In other words, racist who have connections to Ron Paul, not Ron Paul with connections to racists. An actual racist this does not make.

Furthermore, the second article says:
Quote
"Paul is a white nationalist of the Stormfront type who has always kept his racial views and his views about world Judaism quiet because of his political position," he added.


Views about world Judaism? Funny, the thing he puts above all else is a school of economics called the Austrian school, which was founded almost exclusively by Jews. Ludwig von Mises, Murray Rothbard, etc, are all very much Jewish. Calling him anti-semetic is just silly.
Quote
Sorry, but having regular documented in person and telephone strategy meetings with leaders of the racist movements and being implicated as a conspirator in the attempted overthrow of the Dominican Republic by white supremacists goes far far beyond just happening to be supported by racists.

Implicated in the overthrow of the Dominican Republic? Please, educate me. I would think he'd be in jail for that if he did.
Quote

Name one thing, just one, that Obama has actually done that qualifies him as a communist. Can you show, even a little, that he consulted with those communist groups directly and personally and that they consulted with him?

Well, okay, if you want

http://www.aim.org/aim-column/obamas-communist-mentor/
Quote
In his biography of Barack Obama, David Mendell writes about Obama’s life as a
“secret smoker” and how he “went to great lengths to conceal the habit.” But
what about Obama’s secret political life? It turns out that Obama’s childhood
mentor, Frank Marshall Davis, was a communist.

In
his books, Obama admits attending “socialist conferences” and coming into
contact with Marxist literature. But he ridicules the charge of being a
“hard-core academic Marxist,” which was made by his colorful and outspoken 2004
U.S. Senate opponent, Republican Alan Keyes.

However,
through Frank Marshall Davis, Obama had an admitted relationship with someone
who was publicly identified as a member of the Communist Party USA (CPUSA). The
record shows that Obama was in Hawaii from 1971-1979, where,
at some point in time, he developed a close relationship, almost like a son,
with Davis, listening to his “poetry” and getting
advice on his career path. But Obama, in his book, Dreams From My Father, refers to him repeatedly as just “Frank.”

Mind, I don't think Obama is actually a communist anymore then I think Paul is a Nazi. I brought it up to make a point; associations with an objectionable individual does not a racist/communist/etc make.

EDIT:

Actually, I would advise you read those emails yourself, seeing as how some Anons kindly released them. The connection is remarkably weak for all the flair put on it. Some nuts call up some other nuts and say "SUPPORT RON PAUL" and suddenly RON PAUL IS EVIL. Actually, Kelso, the EVIL RON PAUL SUPPORTING RACIST, was actually basically forced out of CPAC by Ron Paul supporters;

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iCdBrAalghY&feature=player_embedded

1258
Other Games / Re: Dwarven Invaders - Server Info and Players List
« on: February 02, 2012, 06:26:37 pm »
Name: GreatJustice
Minecraft Name: Sanae_Kochiya
Title: Explorer, administrator
From: Canada

1259
General Discussion / Re: American Election Megathread
« on: February 02, 2012, 06:15:18 pm »
Paul... You mean the neo-nazi?

Obama... You mean the communist?

Ron Paul is firmly linked the the founders of Stormfront and the American Nazi Party as well as several Grand Dragons of the KKK. He published a racist news letter for a decade, and a subpena was requested regarding his involvement in the white supremacist coupe attempt in the Dominican republic. He firmly stands against the 14th and 24th amendments and has voted against every civil rights legislation he has had the opportunity to.

Why do you think that Obama is a communist? What has he done to even be even tangentially tied to that label?


But this line of questioning has already been covered and is mostly off topic.

He happens to be supported by racists. That makes him no more racist then any other American politician.

About eight newsletters out of several thousand hand racist content, coincidentally occurring when he was actually running his medical practice. Poor management yes, but hardly proof of racism.

Obama is supported by communists, too. He was, after all supported by the American Communist party, the communist youth league, etc. Does this make him a communist? Hardly, but people don't seem to make the same connections with him as they do with Paul, despite the two being functionally no different.

1260
General Discussion / Re: American Election Megathread
« on: February 02, 2012, 05:31:15 pm »
Paul... You mean the neo-nazi?

Obama... You mean the communist?

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