Bay 12 Games Forum

Quote from: gogis on March 05, 2014, 05:36:56 pm

Quote from: GlyphGryph on March 05, 2014, 05:21:09 pm

But you are okay with Russian's engaging in Foreign Peacekeeping there?

(Note: They are by no means limiting themselves to Crimea, and have moved into the rest of the Ukraine)

Crimea is NOT a part of Russia, it is part of Ukraine. Russian presence there is the definition of Foreign Intervention.

No, I am not okay with that, but how it makes my previous points invalid? I already stated or, erhm.. hinted I am against Putin politics overall, but lets going to be clear.
Crimea is not going full Ukraine. Never. Putin will not allow that and I will fully sign for that. Gosh, who cares, ok, Crimea is Ukrainian ok enjoy that land guys, really, but we not going to give up ports and navy bases there. Do I need to explain why?
I am on with Putin on Crimea. Strategical value is immense.
And he is not going for the rest of Ukraine. He is smart enough. If he going otherwise he is politicaly dead.

Why is it that Ukraine has to be either EU-friendly or Russia-friendly?  That construct is purely russian. The impression we get in the rest of Europe is that Putin, and to a certain extent the rest of russia, feels that all of Ukraine "belongs" under russian influence. To suddenly remember that Crimea was signed away by Krushchev after some dinner party seems more like a handy excuse.

>>Why is it that Ukraine has to be either EU-friendly or Russia-friendly?  That construct is purely russian.

Thats construct is purely ACTUALLY west/russian goverment. In fact nobody of russian common folk even care about Ukraine. Have you checked damn map? Man, I am being harsh here but you damn ignorant as heck. You really have no clue and I damn sure you never been closeby but you state is as a fact?

>>Ukraine "belongs" under russian influence.

I concede here.
But it's kind of historically true. I recommend exellent Europa Universalis series game here. Not even country for some game periods, but regions...

>>To suddenly remember that Crimea was signed away by Krushchev after some dinner party seems more like a handy excuse.

That region have a history dated way before Krushchev

edit: edited for racism and general shitness by me

So, just to be clear - you are perfectly okay with foreign intervention, so long as it suits your country's interests?

I need another quote just to be clear.
You really never knew we had naval base in Crimea before all that started? Otherwise I can't understand how can't you understand, all that, and I will bold everything
"Crimea is not going full Ukraine"
"we not going to give up ports and navy bases"

But you are okay with Russian's engaging in Foreign Peacekeeping there?

(Note: They are by no means limiting themselves to Crimea, and have moved into the rest of the Ukraine)

Crimea is NOT a part of Russia, it is part of Ukraine. Russian presence there is the definition of Foreign Intervention.

No, I am not okay with that, but how it makes my previous points invalid? I already stated or, erhm.. hinted I am against Putin politics overall, but lets going to be clear.
Crimea is not going full Ukraine. Never. Putin will not allow that and I will fully sign for that. Gosh, who cares, ok, Crimea is Ukrainian ok enjoy that land guys, really, but we not going to give up ports and navy bases there. Do I need to explain why?
I am on with Putin on Crimea. Strategical value is immense.
And he is not going for the rest of Ukraine. He is smart enough. If he going otherwise he is politicaly dead.

Gogis... I'm just, sort of getting the feeling that either your English is not so good, or you are getting very emotional. Either way, you are communicating really poorly - it is very hard to understand what you are saying, and you don't seem to be understanding what others are saying. Please, slow down, chill a little bit, and put some more time into thinking about how to say what you want to say and interpreting responses.

I know it's a fast-moving thread, and it's tempting to just bang something out, but we'll be a lot better off if we're actually talking with each other instead of past each other.

Russia and Europe and US were involved for the same exact reason.

I can accept that you think none of them should have been involved, since they were all foreign countries and Ukraine should handle it's own problems (if that's what you believe?), but that isn't what happened.

Or do you think Russia should have been involved, but not Europe or the USA? And if so, why?

Sorry, my english is obviously suboptimal. I actually tend to understand, but probably form my sentences and thoughts incorrectly. Most likely.
Okay, here I am going to tell what most russians thinks about situtation regarding Russia/Ukraine
- Crimea is defenitely russian region, historicaly or not. It was once conquered or most likely actually liberated by Catherine. I am not going to comment on that, it's likely just a majority thinking thing.
- Nobody or almost nobody care for the rest of Ukraine. Obviously Ukranians in Russia have their thoughts but I dont ask (it's very touchy topic)
- Very right wing people very fond on all that Kiev-Kievan Rus thing. I dont really care, but for me it's make sense.

Thats about it. Thats why *my* circle thinks that foreign peacekeeping is *not their business* here. It's thought mostly as the inner thing, it's have nothing to do with former USSR or authoritharin Putin tendencies. Just not their businies, thats all. Thats why across the globe Nulandgate was such a bullshit and surprise.

I am stupid, stupid, I said no commenting here. Idiot

The foreign diplomats were involved to stop the two sides from starting to kill each other. That's...pretty normal. I'm tempted to make a cynical comment, but you really seem not to know.

You can't be serious here or you just blatantly ignorant. Russians and Ukrainians is not ever ever like muslim/jews angry-angry. Actually saying "starting to kill each other" is just shows how unaware you are. Out of my 30+ coworkers I have 4 ukrainians (not just bloodline, effectively, right now, Ukrainian citizens). I am going to lunch with some of them just tomorrow. There is not going to be bloodshed. Separate country? Anti russian goverment? Nothing new. Fine. Tension for ages. Racial jokes, all the time.  But what you just said? Thats such an ignorance...

Quote from: gogis on March 05, 2014, 03:58:14 pm

Quote from: GlyphGryph on March 05, 2014, 03:49:32 pm

I have absolutely no idea what you are trying to say.

You need to try and find full transcript of leaked Nuland Pyatt conversation. I can't help you here. The fact of connection between Klitchko and US officials is clear for me, must be not clear for you, but hey, thats a nature of interpretation. Again, if I find that this is troubling, because I am absolutely apolitical person. And now I am worried of shenanigans. I mean really I start believing in West against Russia agenda which I always find amusing before.

Relax, brother, I'm russian as well and I can tell you that the westerners really have nothing against Russia as people, their governments are just freaking out because of what Putin is doing.

I am surrounded by westerners on daily basis, I never blame people, but their goverments actually caught my attention so I started to watch It's always goverment and that dreaded military boldheads

Quote from: Dutchling on March 05, 2014, 03:34:35 pm

Quote from: gogis on March 05, 2014, 03:32:51 pm

Well, genuinely, reading this thread alone make me think that. And actually, leaked Nulandgate scandal somehow caused huge uproar against West, atleast in my circle. And thats is funny, because my circle is generally anti-Putin. Now I am going to hold my opinions to myself, because I found many links and sayings here kinda utterly offensive, bordering insult, including everything about "war" with Georgia. Thats was incredibly one sided anti Russian propaganda full of bullshit in all it's grace so I am better not going to comment it. I call ratio of sayings/links to be utterly one sided/hostile in that thread is like 1:5 towards West. So.

Could you clarify, because I can't find it.

He's probably talking about the (in)famous Nuland's "Fuck the EU!" phone call.

That is exactly the problem. West is jumping on Fuck EU, but not on the rest of conversation, which is interesting. I defenetily don't care "fuck EU" or "fuck Russia" if it happens. I swear all the time, who cares. Thats a Russia - Ukraine - Klitcko - USA. This just not compute. And this Kim... whatever guy from g8? Bought as well? Thats is ridiculous. Generally I completely don't care. I don't even vote. But how the hell these guys involve on something that dirty? Why on earth you try to be involved in coups so CLOSE to me? I am docile dwarf fortress player, damnit. And don't ask me, why I dont want NATO on my border.