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General Discussion / Re: Israel-Gaza/Palestine war thread
« on: January 19, 2024, 02:08:28 pm »No, LW was literally claiming there is no hamas in the West Bank, and he's done it previously in this thread as well.Okay let's look where I claimed that. Here are every single instance I mention West Bank, Hamas, or Hamas not being in an area
Slippers and PJs, the new Hamas uniform.bruh
in west bank
>we must destroy hamas who control gaza
>air strike civilians in west bank
From the article I was responding to:
The BBC has spoken to relatives of the men killed, witnesses in the area at the time, and a paramedic at the scene. All provided strong evidence that the men were not members of armed militant groups, and that no clashes with Israeli forces were taking place in the location at the time.
Khalid al-Ahmad, the first paramedic to arrive that morning, is convinced the men were doing nothing wrong.
"One of them was wearing slippers and pyjamas," he told the BBC. "Don't you think that someone who wants to resist [the Israeli occupation] would at least wear proper shoes?"
The IDF directed us to a statement it released at the time, which said that "during the operation, an aircraft struck a terrorist squad that hurled explosives at the forces operating in the area".
Footage from both the IDF and a nearby CCTV camera does not show any clear evidence of confrontations with Palestinians in al-Shuhada at the time of the strike.
The four brothers - Alaa, Hazza, Ahmad, and Rami Darweesh - were aged between 22 and 29 years old. They were Palestinian emigrants who had returned from Jordan a few years earlier with their mother and five siblings.
They had Israeli permits, allowing them to cross into Israel for agricultural work each day. These permits are often difficult to obtain and are rapidly withdrawn from anyone Israel sees as a security threat - or as linked to someone who is.
The three men killed with them were members of their extended family.
Permits for two of the brothers, seen by the BBC, were issued in September 2023 and valid for several months. The borders with Israel have been closed to Palestinian workers since the Hamas attacks in October.
The paramedic, Khalid al-Ahmad, said that after 20 years working in Jenin, he was used to scanning trauma sites for weapons or explosives, as a basic safety routine.
"I would tell you if there were weapons there," he said. "Honestly, these were civilians. There was nothing relating to the resistance - no bullets, no weapons. And there was no Israeli presence at all."
Armed Palestinian groups - usually quick to claim any members killed by Israeli forces - have been silent about these seven men, with no statement describing any of them as "martyrs" for their cause.
Night-vision drone footage provided by the IDF shows small flashes followed by an explosion as vehicles pass along the road - a heat pattern that could be produced by a petrol bomb. The video does not have a date-stamp or time-stamp.
The army also provided similar footage of its air strike on the location - but the two pieces of video are cut and edited together, making it impossible to tell how much time passed between them.
We asked the IDF to clarify the timings of both events. It replied that it would not be providing any more comment or information.
The timing is important, because of the circumstances needed under international law to justify using lethal force.
The UN's human rights body described the situation in the West Bank at the end of last year as "alarming and urgent".
"Israeli forces have increasingly used military tactics and weapons in law enforcement operations," a statement from its spokesperson said in November. "Law enforcement is governed by international human rights law, which prohibits the intentional use of lethal force except when strictly necessary to protect life."
Ibtesam Asous, the men's mother, said she had seen a change in the methods used by Israeli forces in the West Bank since the Hamas attacks on Israel on 7 October.
"They are acting just as they used to," she said. "The only thing that changed is that, before, the army would shoot a guy in his leg. But now it's bigger - now they are bombing with rockets and killing as many people as they can."
According to UN figures, last year was the bloodiest on record in the West Bank: 492 Palestinians were killed by Israeli forces - 300 of them since the Hamas attacks in October, including 80 children.
Almost all were killed with live ammunition.
Honestly, I apologise to you Scriver. I was in the wrong. Upon reviewing the article I realise now that the PA and Israeli military don't govern West Bank, it's actually Hamas. But maybe I was confused, I didn't mean to write "air strike civilians in West Bank," I meant to write "air strike civilians in West Bank where there are literally no Hamas ever."
Sorry for the confusion. I will be better ;[
Yeah see, sorry for the confusion again. Although I wrote "There is no Hamas in Israeli occupied West Bank; there is no Hamas gov in West Bank at all." I meant to write "the Israeli government in its merciful competence allow Hamas to proliferate under military supervision, except wherever the Palestinian government exists, because in those places not even a single molecule of Hamas exists."The United Nations has called on Israel to end “unlawful killings” and settler violence in the occupied West Bank, warning of a rapidly deteriorating human rights situation during intensified Israeli raids.
In a report published on Thursday, the UN Human Rights Office detailed a “sharp increase” in air strikes and military incursions into densely populated refugee camps, resulting in deaths, injuries and widespread damage to civilian infrastructure in the occupied territory.
“The use of military tactics means and weapons in law enforcement contexts, the use of unnecessary or disproportionate force, and the enforcement of broad, arbitrary and discriminatory movement restrictions that affect Palestinians are extremely troubling,” UN High Commissioner for Human Rights Volker Turk said in a statement.
Since then, the UN has verified the deaths of at least 300 Palestinians in the West Bank, including 79 children, the report said. Of these, 291 were killed by Israeli forces, eight by settlers and one was killed by either soldiers or settlers.
Nearly 4,800 Palestinians have been arrested since the war on Gaza began.
Since October 7, the UN has documented a “sharp rise in settler attacks”, including “shootings, burning of homes and vehicles, and uprooting of trees”.
There is no Hamas in Israeli occupied West Bank; there is no Hamas gov in West Bank at all. Yet the IDF continues to show it's brave stance in opposing military grade olive trees and protecting Israeli settlers who are just defending Israel from a potential invasion by invading Palestinian houses. And why not air strike a refugee camp. I can't think of any reasons not too -_-
This whole "Palestinians are all nazis and we must denazify them" really falls apart when you're just taking their land. Got more in common with conquistadors civilising the natives and teaching them to celebrate their own conquest
I have failed you all. I even meant to literally claim Hamas don't even exist, I actually had evidence Hamas were just a literary device created by Ian Fleming in 1952, fortunately I lost the manuscript before I could embarass myself ;[
Here's where I foolishly made the mistake of reviewing the evidence and not concluding the churches weren't full of Hamas. I now know the Pope is a liar and probably the antichrist too. I should have written "it now falls on dead Christians to prove there is literally no Hamas inside their church or in the west bank, where there is literally no Hamas too."Spoiler (click to show/hide)
This is what his church looks like now. The world's 3rd oldest church. The common evangelical W
The archbishop in that 2014 interview has reportedly survived this bombing though I haven't found any interviews with him post-bombing. Maybe he's still recovering or cat's got his tongue. This is what his church had to say:The Orthodox Patriarchate of Jerusalem expresses its strongest condemnation of the Israeli airstrike that have struck its church compound in the city of Gaza.
The Patriarchate emphasizes that targeting churches and their institutions, along with the shelters they provide to protect innocent citizens, especially children and women who have lost their homes due to Israeli airstrikes on residential areas over the past thirteen days, constitutes a war crime that cannot be ignored.
Despite the evident targeting of the facilities and shelters of the Orthodox Patriarchate of Jerusalem and other churches – including the Episcopal Church of Jerusalem Hospital, other schools, and social institutions – the Patriarchate, along with the other churches, remain committed to fulfilling its religious and moral duty in providing assistance, support, and refuge to those in need, amidst continuous Israeli demands to evacuate these institutions of civilians and the pressures exerted on the churches in this regard.
The Patriarchate stresses that it will not abandon its religious and humanitarian duty, rooted in its Christian values, to provide all that is necessary in times of war and peace alike.
The IDF has not reported any evidence or reasoning as to why they did this. So it once again falls upon the dead Christians to prove they weren't terrorists supporting Hamas
This is not to be confused with Latin Catholic ChurchOn Saturday, Vatican News reported that the IDF had entered the compound, shooting at anyone leaving the church. “The victims are an elderly woman and her daughter who rushed out of the building to rescue her mother. Israel has justified the attack, claiming the presence of a missile launcher in the parish,” it reported.
In a statement quoted by the BBC on Sunday, the IDF said: “During the dialogue between the IDF and representatives of the community, no reports of a hit on the church, nor civilians being injured or killed, were raised. A review of the IDF’s operational findings support this.”
At the Angelus on Sunday, Pope Francis condemned the attack on the compound, “where there are no terrorists, but families, children, people who are sick and have disabilities, and nuns . . . Some say, ‘This is terrorism. This is war.’ Yes, it is war. It is terrorism.”
Writing on social media on Saturday, Hammam Farah, a psychotherapist based in Canada, described the two women as “family friends”. They had been walking to the convent to use the only bathroom, he wrote. “Their bodies remain strewn across the church courtyard. . . The Christian community in Gaza is on the verge of extinction.” His own family members remained in the compound.
According to the Patriarchate, earlier in the morning “a rocket from an IDF tank targeted the convent.” The building’s generator — its only source of electricity — and “fuel resources” had been destroyed. “The house was damaged by the resulting explosion and massive fire. Two more rockets, fired by an IDF tank, targeted the same Convent and rendered the home uninhabitable. The 54 disabled persons are currently displaced and without access to the respirators that some of them need to survive.”
The statement continued that, on Friday night, three people had been wounded inside the church compound as the result of “heavy bombing” in the area. Solar panels and water tanks — “indispensable for the survival of the community” — had been destroyed. The Patriarchate was “at a loss to comprehend how such an attack could be carried out, even more so as the whole Church prepares for Christmas”.n addition, under the ICC Rome Statute, in non-international armed conflicts, it is war crime to intentionally direct attacks against protected objects, namely buildings dedicated to religion, education, art, science or charitable purposes, historic monuments, hospitals and places where the sick and wounded are collected. To benefit from this protection from all forms of attack, the protected objects must not be used by a party to a conflict for acts harmful to the enemy.I'm sure the Pope is just lying though and it is both moral and productive to bomb churches because they're harbouring terrorists until they prove they're not. And I may as well trust police who swear the black man they just killed reached for a gun. Can't wait for the next episode of "we didn't kill you, Hamas did. But if we did kill you, it was an accident, and if it wasn't an accident, you can't prove you didn't have a rocket launcher."
Just glad the IDF no longer has to fear ancient churches and disabled refugees threatening their operations. Maybe the sniper should target himself the next time he guns down a family.
You don't need a hypothetical. Even in West Bank with no Hamas presence you can shoot them in the back of the head and it doesn't even result in an arrest, let alone a published reportI know here I was referring to a linked article where there was no Hamas presence and the IDF were filmed shooting an unarmed civilian in the back of the head whilst he fled for his life, but I erred; I didn't make it clearer I was actually saying there is literally no Hamas presence in the west bank.
I'm not asking to prove the people killed weren't hamas. You weren't even claiming the people killed weren't hamas. You were claiming there is no hamas on the West Bank. This is what you have to defend. It's well documented that hamas is active in the west bank too. They fatah's biggest competitor for the leadership of it ffs.I've been admonished, and rightfully so. I apologise for dishonestly engaging with everyone by making carefully cited arguments. I should have stooped to the levels of the honest and upright people I was debating with. Instead of having sources for everything and carefully wording my arguments making it absolutely clear that I was disturbed the investigations showed civilians being deliberately targeted, I should have been defending you scriver, because I also forgot to say "scriver is literally not hamas." And I know you're one of the good ones, who would never ask someone to defend a claim they never made. But you should be careful; if someone asked me to prove you're not Hamas... All I'm saying is it's not what I'd have to defend, it's what I'd have the evidence to believe. And I don't have any evidence to believe you're not secretly Hamas, it's just good faith I believe you're a fine dancer
Don't do this pretentious dance as if the one making a disearnest argument when you're the one who won't engage in good faith.
Really, I should have just done the morally brave thing and claim the UNRWA support Hamas without evidence[...]UNRWA is full of hateful and/or corrupt people who use humanitarian aid money to spread an ideology of hate, fuel the war effort against Israel and make Hamas leaders rich.
Where is your evidence for this strong claim? Without decent evidence the UN have nothing to acknowledge.
If they were firing rockets from churches in 2014 what makes you think they wouldn't be doing it now?I should have done the hard work to claim rockets were fired from churches without evidence
journalist stuff - I am too lazy to go through that. Israel, most likely, eliminated some hostileI should have really just thought about my life and claimed all the journalists the IDF killed were propagandists and militants without evidencepropagondistsjournalists on purpose (not that there is reliable evidence of that), but most are just victims of war or even combatants. Palestinians actively use the status of journalists in their war tactics and many of those are just not journalists at all. Foreign journalists just LOVE that place, and when there are many people of a certain category in a dangerous place, a high number of them will die.
And actions of Palestinians (no, not HAMAS, civilians actively participated in the 7th October's "fun") go beyond cold terrorism. I think calling them terrorists is generous. Monsters or maniacs fit way better. They murdered not to induce fear and force Israelis to do something. They murdered with pure sadistic glee, with genocidal intention, they did it because they enjoyed the process. They also screamed Allahu Akbar while doing so sincerely believing that they are doing something holyWHY DIDN'T I JUST CLAIM Palestinian civilians participated in the 7th of October terrorist attack without evidence
This de facto country received serious international support from the West (various charities that did help HAMAS) and from Iran\Russia\Qatar\etc who provided more direct support to boost their military strength.I should have just claimed the West and various charities helped Hamas without evidence
In the end, by 2023, Gaza was stronger militarily than most other countries of a similar size. If you pit the army of Gaza against the army of Latvia - Latvians would be steamrolled.
Even if I accept the claim that Israel is just randomly detaining all men of fighting age (but then why we haven't seen such photos from the beginning?) it is a justified military tactic in a hostile urban environment - detain all men who may be combatants until proven otherwise. And those men aren't beaten, aren't tortured, aren't raped. Like, I dunno, Ukrainians on occupied territories. But somehow this mild, by standards of war, treatment is something "impossible to tolerate".That I should just support treating everyone as combatants until proven otherwise and that they should pay the consequences for sharing the same race as terrorists... I'm so ashamed of the way I have acted
Just by laws of probability, many of those partially naked men, directly or indirectly participated in an act of utter barbarity on Oct 7th and face the consequences of their EVIL actions. And yes, not all of them participated in it but it is how social species work - if part of your "tribe" does stuff, you'll face consequences, too.
So yeah I'll accept your apology Scriver
