Bay 12 Games Forum

I never claimed that production costs directly affected price. They indirectly affect price by determining how cheaply the producer is willing to sell for.

True. I never meant my post to be a correction of yours, merely an expansion. And obviously, yes, the current in-fort economy (or rather, total lack thereof) is only a placeholder.

There is still unresolved points: how to account for the quality of the good and eventual decorations? They might act as modifiers on the final price. And could golden statues be less expalsive than lead ones in some extreme cases?

     As far as decorations are concerned, I can see how in some cases, they could actually reduce the value of the finished good: If they are of noticeably lower quality, and/or of much lower material cost, than the base item, then they effectively mar the item's beauty and make it look cheap. In extreme cases, this could be considered vandalism, albeit unintentional. If you have a +gold statue+ and embellish it with some masterfully-placed brilliant-cut almandines, then that's a considerable improvement. But if it's a ☼gold statue☼ and you mangle the work with your clumsily-laid hunks of schist, then you've made the king look like a beggar! Shame on you!
     Theoretically, lead statues could be worth more than gold ones, although it's rather unlikely, and largely for reasons that would make them worth less than the equivalent of bars of the same metals. As far as DF is concerned, gold & lead are just as useful: Gold's advantages of being ton-toxic, non-tarnishing, and a great electrical conductor aren't included in the game, and both metals are almost equally soft & ductile, so really the only reason to prefer gold is that it's more shiny. And the only reason to prefer lead is because you've got some noble with a material preference. But if you desire lead for the lead itself, then finished goods should actually be worth less than the raw metal, due to the emotional pain that the buyer knows he's going to feel when he melts the artwork back down.

Quote from: GoblinCookie on October 30, 2018, 08:06:24 am

It will be necessary for us to slow down the productivity of our dwarves per hour in order to guarantee a certain quality of an item be produced.  That is because a totally random production of high-quality items means that since no greater amount of labour was used to produce them than the lower quality items, so the numerical value of such items is the same as that of lower-quality items.

No. Masterworks represent an investment of labor by a highly skilled dwarf as opposed to the same investment of labor by an unskilled dwarf. Skilled dwarves are rarer. Masterworks are subjectively more pleasing, and objectively superior in combat. This alone is sufficient to give masterworks a higher price.

     The time/labor costs of an item's production are largely irrelevant to a buyer, and should therefore have no impact on the item's price. Where they are relevant is on the artisan's desire to produce that item: Things that take a long time to make but give only a small return simply aren't worth the maker's time, so of course he chooses not to make them, which creates scarcity, which drives the price up, which makes the item worth making. But in DF, there are three things that break this natural equilibrium: 1) Dwarves don't make capitalisitic decisions in a communist society, 2) Dwarves have no qualms about doing non-cost-effective work, especially when there is often literally nothing else to do, and 3) Legendaries can and will do the same job in the blink of an eye, effectively making the entire concepts of "labor costs" and "competition" obsolete.

Suggested improvements:
     More realistic timeframes, for all products. No Mason, no matter how Legendary, should be able to whip out 15 stone weapon racks in an hour--just as no Cook, no matter how Dabbling, should take 3 days just to prepare some stew.
     Smaller speed increases as an artisan gains ranks in a skill . . . perhaps even none at all.
     Revamp the creation process into a multi-step one, rolling the "quality dice" each time. As the craftsdwarf completes an item, he compares: 1) The time he's taken on it so far, vs. the "average" time for that type of item, 2) The quality level of the item, vs. his own level of skill, 3) The quality level of the item, vs. the odds that any further work would be an improvement, and 4) The time required for further work, vs. his own needs for food/drink/sleep. IF the craftsdwarf is a) not too far behind schedule, b) unsatisfied with his work so far, c) fairly sure that he could do better, and d) not too distracted by physical needs, then he should try to fine-tune and/or salvage his work. Roll the quality dice again, and maybe he'll improve the item, maybe he'll make it worse, and maybe he'll screw up completely & wreck it beyond repair. So the main reason that Legendaries can do work so much faster than other artisans should be because they got it right the first time.

Just pointing out that the Nether / Upside Down would make for a good LATE-game challenge, but horrible in the early years of Fort mode, and making possible breaches obvious to the player runs the very real risk of being noticeably artificial and cheesy.

     If we're really going to chew on the optimization of everything tea-related, meaning all of agriculture, that's going to involve pretty much every major update Toady has planned: The caverns and magic are going to be heavily affected by the Mythgen release, making dwarves partly dependent on underground rivers will only become feasible if/when the Embark scenarios release allows us to embark underground, etc. The entire thread would be basically made of derails because we wouldn't be able to focus on any one thing. So I for one advocate dropping the entire agriculture angle and concentrating on alternative beverages.

     We can kill two birds with one stone: Dwarves are currently hypersensitive to stress, and we "need" a way to strongly link them to booze that doesn't involve them being somehow addicted to it from birth. So we completely do away with the gamey tags like [ALCOHOL_DEPENDENT], and instead assign all drinks varying values of Thirst_Quench, Alcohol_Content, and a bevy of Taste factors like Sweet, Bitter, Sour, Smooth, Fruity, etc., in order to appeal differently to dwarves with a varying range of preferred tastes. (A system which makes far more sense than having just 1 specific favorite food, especially when it's a food they've never had.) Then, make the alcoholic drinks lower stress (and perhaps make dwarves exceptionally sensitive to that stress-reducing effect), and maybe make certain other drinks (most likely the caffeinated ones) actually raise stress a bit. Finally, allow dwarves (at least) to be aware of this difference, so that they will know when they need a drink. Relatively happy dwarves will be more free to drink other beverages, but there's still no reason for them to avoid booze. So, all told, about 75% of the drinks consumed by dwarves will be alcoholic, as opposed to maybe 50% for non dwarves (assuming ample quantities of both, of course).

   A grab-bag of thoughts for Toady & Tarn to peruse while they're working over Mythgen. Currently, the DF gods are fairly good, but they could certainly stand to have a lot more personality (they're little more than collections of spheres), as well as exposition: Neither the mortals of the universe, nor we the players, can know if the gods actually exist as individual beings, of they're just facets of Armok's power, or if they're all just constructs of their worshipers' collective imagination. I would like to help rectify this, and also make the gods more intriguing & far more dynamic.

Part I: The Gods
   First things first: The gods can't be much fun if they don't exist at all. I would place them right at the intersection between God and Man (they were created by Armok, but also shape themselves to better suit the preferences & expectations of their worshipers), as well as the intersection of Worldgen and Mythgen: Introduce all the gods at the start of Worldgen, but add the relevant spheres only as each successive layer of the world is laid down, and have the gods compete with each other for control of whatever spheres appear to be the most important at the time. Give the deities personality traits: Some are more greedy for sacrifice, some desire to show off for non-believers, some are vengeful, some are afraid of battle with other gods, etc. These traits will influence each god's relative preferences for the different spheres, as well as allow them to form friendships/alliances/grudges with the other gods. Most importantly, let the deities use whatever spheres they happen to possess, which will add a very flavorful layer to the myths dating from the time before time--as well as permanently mark the biomes where the spheres were used. Some deities are driven mad by the conflict and become doomed to wander the earth, while others hide themselves away and become forgotten, perhaps taking their spheres with them.
   As Armok finally creates sentient creatures and history begins, the various surviving deities coalesce around the fledgling mortal civilizations, forming pantheons for their mutual benefit. Each deity now takes (and/or is given) a name and an appearance, which may or may not include symbolic details such as being represented with a specific tool/weapon/garment, etc., or having part of their body maimed or replaced with an animal part. Every individual god still also remembers his own friendships and enmities with the others, resulting from their actions during the time before time, and this will continue to drive their relationships going forward. The tumultuous nature of the Age of Myth is echoed in the divine realm, as the gods are still jostling for spheres in their attempt to consolidate their power and be more easily worshiped by mortals. This settles down as each pantheon gradually stabilizes, yet there are always changes that can occur:

• Gods can willingly trade spheres between one another
• Gods can steal one another's spheres, or take them by force or threat of force, or even kill each other outright
• Gods can hide one or more of their spheres, which temporarily prevents their feeding off of that sphere's worship but also means they don't have to guard it from other gods
• Gods can happen upon the spheres hidden by another god (or possibly those lost by slain Titans & Forgotten Beasts, if you choose to go that route)
• Gods can sometimes create copies of spheres held by gods outside their own pantheon (usually at the cost of surrendering some of their saved worship power in exchange)
• Gods can form new friendships, alliances, rivalries (especially if they both have spheres of similar power in the same domain), grudges, and blood-feuds with one another
• Gods can form familial bonds, friendships, and romances, even to the point of getting married and having children, with each child getting at least 1 sphere (either inherited, or created)
• Gods can sponsor certain exceptionally favored mortals by endowing them with one of their lesser spheres, thus elevating the mortal into a demigod

   Additionally, gods (especially gods of travel and trade) can occasionally go between different pantheons, either just for a visit or actually gaining worshipers from among that civilization's citizens. Almost all of the above interactions can happen with "foreign" gods: e.g., a god from a landlocked civilization might have the sphere of Oceans, which of course would be useless to her, so she visits one or more "neighboring" coastal pantheons to try to trade it for something else. These interactions need not be benign: a rogue god from one civ could travel to another to steal a sphere from one of their gods, or indeed possibly even abduct an entire deity (either for the purpose of a forced marriage, or to extort one or more spheres in exchange for their freedom). Naturally, these kinds of hostile acts would almost certainly trigger a war between the two civs in question.
   Gods can also leave their pantheon entirely, for instance a civ that has two deities wrestling for control of the Sky domain might border a pantheon that has no gods in that area, so one god might logically cede the disputed territory in exchange for being the uncontested master in the new land--provided that the other civilization is receptive to their neighbor's beliefs, of course. Roaming gods happen most importantly when a civilization goes extinct, forcing its deities to either find new homes, or starve. The foreigner deities might have to pay a sphere or two to buy the acceptance of their new divine roommates (just as any refugees from the destroyed civ would be lower-status in their new one), but that's only fair. (Homeless gods that are similar enough with already-resident deities might even merge with them.)

Part II: The Spheres
   The charts that I have spoilered here are mostly based on the game's current list of spheres (along with their Parent/Child, Friend, and Preclude lists), with some additions and minor tweaks of my own. They are not representative of what I think the game's final setup should be, particularly in light of the upcoming major revisions to (or even outright additions of) major elements such as the caverns and magic. These charts illustrate only what I think is a good method for organizing a stable theology, upon which the procedurally-generated gods are based.

   List all of your desired spheres, and arrange them into some arbitrary number of Tiers (which sort the spheres by relative power/importance), and another number of Domains (which group spheres of related themes together). Here, I have 171 spheres scattered across 9 Tiers and 23 Domains:
   Then, chart out how the various Domains interact with each other:
   This, when combined with the various Friend and Preclude lists, each god's inherent personality traits, and the spheres that they already hold, determines the level of desire that each god feels for each sphere that they have yet to obtain. Clearly, the most powerful spheres in the top Tier would generally be in the highest demand--but also the most zealously guarded by those who hold them. It is in each deity's best interest to collect spheres that are all related to each other, in order to make himself as easy to worship as possible; "For everything related to the sky, pray to Lun Starrained!" is a lot more convenient than "Erib Bronzesilvers the Copper Rocks is the god of minerals (but not metals), crafts, dusk (but not night), trees, and trade." The more focused your control over a particular area, the clearer the image that mortals can have of you. Of course, the obvious pitfall there is that if it becomes common to see just one god per domain, then each pantheon of gods will start to seem pretty much like any other, and a good-sized facet of DF's replay value will be lost. What I hope will be an effective countermeasure is the large percentage of spheres that show up in multiple domains: Every single one of my Domains has spheres from at least 3 other domains in it. Hopefully, this would mean that even well-concentrated gods would be infringing on somebody else's territory, and/or have still other deities intruding on their own. The domain overlap would also likely tempt gods into trying to hold clusters of spheres in 2 or 3 domains simultaneously, rather than monopolizing just one, or scattering spheres randomly. And gods spreading themselves over multiple domains means more interaction--and likely tension--with the other members of their pantheon.

   One last note about the spheres. Two of them are quite unusual:
   * Toady originally set down the Preclude list of which spheres are mutually exclusive with each other (such as Fire & Rivers, or Food & Blight, or Beauty & Deformity), and I think that's a sound plan. But I also think it'd be fun to occasionally throw a spanner in the works with the sphere of Opposites, which has the curious property of subverting the Preclude list, making its possessor god desire to hold spheres that are in direct conflict with one another. So every once in a while, you might get a deity of both Chaos & Discipline, or Forgiveness & Revenge, or perhaps a god of Dawn & Dusk that happens to be in a parent/child relationship with a god of Cycles. The sphere of Opposites should also make its holder feel less desire for spheres that are not conflicting.
   * The sphere of Twins cannot be held by just one god--essentially, it splits its possessor into two deities. It cannot be obtained by any god that did not already have at least two related spheres: Either two complementary spheres of the same domain (such as Fish & Fishing), or opposing ones (e.g., Consolation & Misery). The holder(s) of the Twins sphere perceive a lowered desire to hold any spheres that are unrelated to those already held. Each pair of spheres is divided between the new god-halves, with attention paid to each sphere's Tier so that the resulting twins are (about) equal in power. This can result in two gods peacefully sharing control of a domain equally between them, or two violent enemies whose spheres are nothing but polar opposites of one another, or a love/hate relationship anywhere in between. If the original deity held the sphere of Balance (or it is obtained after the split), it is shared by both. The sphere of Opposites, if held, must be dropped.

Part III: Why?
   The obvious problem of implementing this system is--What's the point? We already have gods who frequently have spheres that make sense together, gods whose names occasionally bear some relation to their sphere(s), and the god of Death (if there is one) is usually portrayed as a skeleton. This is a very complicated plan, it sounds like a hell of a lot of work for Toady, and all for arguably very minor returns. I concede that all of that is true. And pretty much my only reply is Yeah, but it would be bitchin'.
   Greek mythology isn't just about knowing that Hephaestus is the god of labor & invention, it's about Cronus trying to eat all of his children (yet somehow being fooled with a stone), and it's about horny Zeus impregnating every mortal woman he could get his static-clingy-hands on. Norse mythology isn't just about how Freyja is the goddess of love, fertility, & death, it's about how Loki once gave birth to an eight-legged horse, and how Buri was licked into being by a primeval supercow. There's more to theology than just listing off names & powers like an accountant--mythology is about myths, about telling stories. The gods need to interact, with each other at the bare minimum, and if possible with mortals as well. And DF provides the perfect framework for it: In Legends mode, we can read about the hectic free-for-all as the gods battled it out while Creation itself screamed all around them . . . and then as civilizations formed, a small group of them took The Confederation of Treaties under its collective wing and defended them from all comers. In Fortress mode, you could be delighted to find that your civ's god of Metals has given her High Priest the ability to go dowsing for ore--at least until you learn that a nearby civ's god of Birds stole your Sky god's attendant vulture, so, whoops, you're at war now. And in Adventurer mode, you could wander into an unfamiliar church, ask the clergy about their faith, and learn that this civ has a god of Lust but not Marriage, and that the god of Lust has children with two other deities--and because pantheons usually reflect the beliefs of their followers, you deduce that this culture is likely accepting of polygamy and/or extramarital sex. And that's before your adventurer becomes powerful enough to pique the interest of the gods themselves, one of whom assigns you a quest to kill a specific Titan . . . and maybe, just maybe, to claim its sphere for yourself & become a demigod, enabling you to travel to the astral plane & rub shoulders with actual deities. Bitchin'.
   Yeah, coding it would be a lot of work--but perhaps not that much, as the gods behave pretty much like dwarves. Model them on existing traits, preferences, and social behaviors to develop their friendships & grudges. Allow garments & trinkets (the spheres) to be claimed by multiple people at once to make the gods fight over them like Infinity Stones. And replace the gods' physical needs (food, drink, sleep) with spiritual ones (belief, worship, sacrifice). It would provide a very good reason for certain biomes to be associated with specific spheres. And it would be fascinating to see certain events play out in the divine realm to mirror those down on the mortal plane--and vice versa. As always, whether or not this expansion would be worth the labor is for Toady alone to decide, but I hope it's at least worth considering.

I'm just passing through, here, but a couple of things jumped out at me.

. . . If we pick the right moment where the general state of things are correctly aligned for the great man to change the world then we can have them do so; all arguable great men in history have certainly had the fortune of being there at the right time. 

But 15th Granite 250 is not supposed to be a special day.  The game is not designed so as to have the player arrive at the right time that his intervention would likely be able to change the society.

     Put aside, for the moment, the fact that "dramatic social revolution" is not currently implemented in DF, because of course it isn't. What is implemented, however, are quests to stop a ruthless gang of bandits, or put together a war party to go slay the dragon that's been terrorizing the countryside. Do you not save dozens, even hundreds of lives in this way? Do you not dramatically alter the future of the whole region? Do you not become a hero, whom other men will follow? Does this not satisfy the Great Man Theory? And what's all this having to be in the right place at the right time? Was Martin Luther able to shatter all of Christendom just because he happened to post his theses precisely when Europe was already at the tipping point anyway? Of course not, he sparked a revolution because his ideas were different, and a foreign adventurer character is very well positioned to point out what he sees as glaring flaws in a society, particularly if he's riding the popularity wave of just having saved a town or two. Your little quibble over "the moment he arrives" is pure misdirection--the only reason the player can't do that sort of quest is because that sort of quest simply hasn't been written (yet), and you know it. Face the facts and argue correctly.

Ah, we are back to talking about violence-in-video games.  Well I guess it is not so far off oppression-in-video-games which is not so far off gender-in-video-games which was the OP.

In any case, it just so happens that the fall in violent crime is no longer the case, it has actually started to rise again.  The funny thing is this is truly violent crime of the horrific kind but not minor violent incidents.  This however is quite consistent if you think that violent video games desensitise people to violence in general . . .

     As Putnam pointed out, dwarves don't have faces. Yeah, a lot of people seem to enjoy video game violence, and I don't know what games they go to for those particular jollies, but I do know which game they don't play: This one. I can't put my finger on it, but there's just something a little anticlimactic about seeing ASCII violence rendered in full HD with surround sound.

     People trying to claim video-game violence causes real-world violence always seem to gloss over the innumerable atrocities throughout all history, and in places/societies that simply have no exposure to such games. And as for your report that violent crime is on the rise--if, as you imply, it is prompted by video games, then which game? Isn't the Grand Theft Auto craze long past its peak, at least until its next installment? Personally, I find it much more likely that this surge of real-world nastiness is caused by . . . real-world nastiness, what with the right-wing nationalism, intolerance, and violent rhetoric on the upswing again in Britain & other parts of Europe, Brazil, and of course America. People don't hurt, kill, or oppress people because someone on their screen tells them it's okay--they do it because they already had a latent desire to do so, and someone in their own culture shows them that it's okay. Blaming video games/movies/etc. for society's various ills has never made sense.

I don't think we should overlook the medicine/disease angle, which could add quite a lot to the game. Actual tea tea has no meaningful medicinal effects that I'm aware of, but infusions (and other treatments) of many different plants were (and still are) used to treat fevers, asthma, burns, heart conditions, etc.

I'd like to see the Herbalist profession removed, and replaced with:
"Forager", a new Ranger skill, who primarily seeks out edible plants (but may also kill/trap vermin creatures he happens to encounter), and
"Herbologist", a new Doctor skill who identifies, cultivates, harvests & prepares medicinal plants (and maybe a few animals).