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Messages - Nil Eyeglazed

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16
DF Wiki Discussion / Re: re minecart logic, am i smoking crack?
« on: February 26, 2014, 04:03:14 pm »
So I think I'm done with the changes I planned to the minecart logic page.  I have some thoughts regarding it though:

1) I'm not sure that the techniques mentioned in "other techniques" shouldn't be demonstrated.  That's just how I ended up doing it.
2) The key is too big.  Ideally, it would be a paragraph in a smaller font, or a sidebar without actual sentences and such.  I don't know how to do either, so I didn't.
3) I got rid of a lot of stuff.  Almost everything, actually.  I hope I did so towards a good end, I hope it's clear why I got rid of what I did, and I hope people feel free to replace things if they disagree :)
4) Some of the diagrams would benefit from empty space, but I don't know how to do that.

17
DF Dwarf Mode Discussion / Re: Circus Survival
« on: February 26, 2014, 03:01:56 pm »
When I want the tent and don't feel like doing a lot of work for it, I use something like the artifact awe trap.
I think I'm missing something here. Wouldn't they just destroy the artifact and move on?

They try to.  Since it's an artifact, they can't.  (Be careful, this only works with some types of furniture.  A hatch cover works, last time I tried; a statue doesn't.)

Quote
And also: is there any really reason to set up camp in hell, ressourcewise or anything. Or is it just the sheer epicness of the task?
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
(Might want to spoiler tag the question; continued discussion is going to involve spoilers one way or another, and some people actually are bothered...)

18
DF Dwarf Mode Discussion / Re: Circus Survival
« on: February 26, 2014, 02:06:06 pm »
When I want the tent and don't feel like doing a lot of work for it, I use something like the artifact awe trap.

19
DF Dwarf Mode Discussion / Re: The hardest embark. EVER.
« on: February 26, 2014, 04:07:44 am »
Been away for a few versions, so maybe my understanding is out of date, but this is how I see it:

Thirst is the killer for sure.  Everything else, you can probably work around.  Population will grow until it exceeds your ability to provide drink.

After that, fortress crumbles, because you have no way to create slabs or coffins, and that means that even if a dwarf survives the drought and the tantrum, he won't survive the hauntings.

There are two solutions.  "Everybody's a vampire" doesn't work because you need water for that.  "Everybody's a were-iguana" works, but is almost impossible to pull off without risking fortress-ending ghosts.  And both depend on some really lucky circumstances.

But I think "no stone" is cheaty.  I don't think that's possible, is it?

20
DF Dwarf Mode Discussion / Re: North and south?
« on: February 24, 2014, 12:45:33 pm »
As long as we're being all technical...

I think you can plainly see



that in  reality, the middle part is the cold part, with it getting warmer out to the edges

21

Good idea. I had thought about including a door in it (i mean, a data input plus enable _is_ effectively an AND operation and hatch+door combined can do just that with a single ramp-pit) but discarded the idea because it didn't quite fit the exact use doctrine i had applied for my memory bank. For a memory design which sends a, say, "adress" signal to the byte/bit to allow an operation, your design allows to send both Set and Reset from common signal providers and only process them in those cells that are being adressed.

Yeah, certain bits of how your addressing system is designed have become more apparent to me throughout this discussion.  I want to mention that for your system, you could be using these latches we're discussing most recently with a slight change.  In addition to a "write enable" input, you can have a "read enable" input that opens doors allowing minecarts to loop through a side passageway, hitting a pressure plate that thus sets/resets the appropriate register bit.  Top down, would look something like:

Code: [Select]
%%%%
%╔d%
%^▲%
%╚▲%
%%%%

That's a small circuit intended to replace the reset pit the minecart oscillates around in; should it receive a "read-enable" input, the door opens, minecart rolls around over a pressure plate resetting (since we're in the reset pit) register at, say, bit position 1.  The set pit needs to be modified similarly-- output to set register, but input still from read-enable.  Doubles the size of the cell, but should allow fast, non-destructive read-to-register operations that can be addressed in the same manner as you address your write (with one extra bit describing write/read).  Not sure that that impulse ramp/pit is sufficient for purposes, but I'm sure that some design would be.

This is assuming that your memory is needed for output as well as processing.  If your memory is only used for processing, you don't really need three different outputs.  You only need two: read-true-on-read-enable, read-false-on-read-enable.  (This is easier for me to think about when I describe reads as "write-x-to-register".)  That means the pressure plate in the set part of the original design doesn't need to exist.  It sounds like that's how you've been handling things, and one reason why I had a lot of trouble understanding the spin memory.

Quote
One minimal possible improvement:

I'll test it out; I trust your experience with this stuff that works though.

Quote
With a wall instead of open air in slot ?

You need open air for minecart changing from true->false to drop into the reset pit-- but I suppose you don't actually need to drop into the reset pit until you need to be accelerated into the set pit.  Should work, although I doubt anybody would get any use out of the single tile saved.  Even if I was making kilobytes, I'd probably prefer to keep my memory aligned rather than staggered.  Would also interfere with the read-enable circuits I describe above, but those might not be the ideal solution anyways.

Also increases latency on set operations.  Maybe good: latency becomes constant and predictable.  Maybe bad: latency becomes worst possible.

22
Thanks, yeah-- I only tested for accidental derailments, didn't actually remove all walls.  You're right that side walls are necessary, making each bit 3x7 (comparable to hydromechanical still).

The design you have is funny, because that's exactly what I was going to test next :)  Minus the write enable part.  Something like that is nice and small, and really fast, and general purpose.  Let me draw it from the side just to make sure we're on the same-ish page:
Code: [Select]

 % h_h %%
 %\/%\^/%

Which is also an edge detector with the pressure plate moved to the top; and can be made circular and directional, for separate rising and falling edge detection; pretty sure a repeater can be made out of it too.  Latency is reasonable (I consider <100 ticks to write true acceptable, <200 ticks to write false acceptable).  At worst, I see 4 tiles travel to write true (+0 ticks latency to pop a hatch), and 3 tiles travel before the plate has a chance to send an off (+100 ticks latency on that).  Sound like you're saying it should take about 10 steps for this minecart to travel one tile?

I don't quite understand the write-enable thing, because it seems to me that to disable writing, you need to lose your value.

My approach to addressable memory has been to stick an extra step between my write-to-memory and require a write-to-memory AND address position bit 1 AND address position bit 2 AND....  Every bit of addressable memory needs this relay, at least with the way I think about it.  Building a 5*AND circuit can usually be done a lot more simply than 5 complete, independent ANDs in series, of course.  (5 because that seems like a nice amount of memory to address at once for a DF computer, and lets you pull 3 bit instruction with 5 bit argument.)  In these systems, I've been assuming 8 bits per byte, and figuring on a bit shift if I ever needed to, say, write a bit to an alternate position.  I'm not sure if I understand what you mean with 4th bit (what are 2nd and 3rd bits?).  EDIT: NM on that, I see you were using 4th bit as an example.

EDIT: Okay, just skimmed wikipedia/latch, I see what you're saying.  If you want an Enable input, it seems to me that the best way to do that is with a door on top of the circuit like so:

Code: [Select]

 % h+h %%
 %\/%\^/%

Quote
I find it curious that a 2x2 loop doesn't work (cart can't leave).
It might.  I've had inconsistent results with experiments and how many impulse ramps to force derailment.  Didn't do everything I possibly could to optimize this design.  Which is fine, because this other memory you mentioned is probably better in every way :)

EDIT AGAIN: Doesn't quite work; cart settles onto pressure plate.  Slight rework:
Code: [Select]

 # hdh ^  #
 #\/#\/#\/#

That one works.  That puts size at 18 tiles.  A bit easier to build a bajillion of them than other varieties though (just a bunch of N/S track).

23
I just finished testing a different minecart-based memory circuit.  You might like it.  It is:
 
 *Low latency
 *Powerless
 *Compact and easy to tile
 *Built on a single z-level
 *Easy to manage signals with

Code: [Select]
circuit ramps + furniture
 |╗      A.
 ╗|      A.
 =╝      A^
 ..      ++
 ╔=      .A
 |╚      .A
 ╚|      .A

. is unsmoothed floor; A is upward ramp (nonfunctional); + is door (input); ^ is pressure plate (output)

My apologies for the ugliness of that circuit diagram.  You've got two loops, but one half of each loop is made out of impulse ramps, so it looks all screwy.

Minecart travels through one of two circuits-- north (true) or south (false).  Three impulse ramps give it derailing velocity.  Opening the west door puts it on the southern path-- thus, opening the west door writes false.  Opening the east door writes true.  Opening doors, of course, is a zero latency operation.  Pressure plate is output-- if memory is false, last signal from plate is off; if memory is true, last signal from plate is on.

Don't even need any walls; I've got one circling right now.  That's 14 tiles per bit, rectangular package, more compact than hydromechanical, just as fast or faster than hydromechanical, no power.  Discounting linkage, 3 stones and a minecart (want to say 2 logs?) per bit.

Oh, and I'm awful with using the right jargon too.  I try to say things in multiple ways because I want to try to use the right terms-- and I want people to know what I mean in case I use the wrong terms :)  I hope it doesn't sound like I'm ever correcting anyone's usage.  Outside of DF (and inside of it, frequently), I understand this stuff only very, very poorly.

24
I should've asked in this thread.  I'm reproducing what you wrote about spin memory in the wiki forum thread so I can ask questions in the proper place.


Let's start with a clarification, requoting from inside the spoilers:
Quote
Code: [Select]
.╔=╗
╔▼¢╝
╚=╝
Let's recap: the hatch covers a ramp down; both ramps have EW track.  This puts any cart rolling onto the impulse ramps onto a counterclockwise rotation around the circuit.  When the pictured hatch cover is open, the direction of entry into the impulse ramp pit determines whether the cart will be rolling around the northern circuit or the southern circuit.

Quote
When the hatch cover is open, the cart will cycle harmoniously. If it closes, a cart on the southwestern loop cannot roll into the western pit, rolls over it and leaves the circuit on a northward heading. A cart on the northeastern loop can still enter the western ramp, but cannot leave from the eastern ramp, thus gets reflected, leaves to the west, around the southwestern loop and also leaves to the north.

I didn't find this, so there's something I didn't understand.  When the cart is moving counter-clockwise around the southern loop and the pictured hatch is closed, the cart continues north from the hatch.  In my first trial, this meant that it ran into a wall.  On getting rid of that wall and making an extra bit of track so that the minecart re-enters the loop, it meant that the minecart stays on the southern track, because that's where the only exit from the impulse ramp pit leads.  (Likewise, closing the western hatch constrains the minecart to the northern loop, not the southern loop.)

I think that's just a little typo that I wanted to clarify.  I'm finding larger problems with signal management.  It seems to me that it's simple enough to put a pressure plate on one arm of the loop for output, but how do you input?  Because it looks to me like you need to send "off-on" signal cycles rather than "on-off" cycles.  While not completely impossible, that takes all of the simplicity, speed, and ease of design out of the memory.

Or else....  This confuses me further:
Quote
two zinc (teal) hatch covers are operated by the clear/write lever

Since I don't understand how everything works, I'm probably wrong-- but that sounds like a single lever is used to either set or clear the memory (that is, write true or write false).  An 'on' signal does one and the 'off' signal does the other.  But in that case, it's hard for me to imagine what use the memory is.  Anything it could possibly remember is already being remembered by its input.

Heh, your user pages have been a source of encouragement for me more than once. It didn't cut out any of the learning process to me, what counted was that they demonstrated that there's quite a lot of potential in DF logic, and it all starts with very basic concepts.

It makes me really happy to hear that :)  I'd written all that in a hypomanic haze and had long since given up hope of it ever being useful to anyone.

25
oops double somehow, scroll down

26
DF Wiki Discussion / Re: re minecart logic, am i smoking crack?
« on: February 20, 2014, 12:35:10 am »
I think I see the spin memory-- but I have to build it to make sure.

Have to try out a few of your designs.  I didn't see paired impulse ramps lifting minecarts, but I never had them adjacent either, always at least a tile of separation.

Newton memory can demonstrate a principle, and offer a compact latch at the same time...

Totally agree re: your PSC, better and simpler than the 2x2.  I plan on replacing the whole PSC section with that, with the hint that minor modifications can make an edge detector or a repeater, maybe leave that as an exercise for the reader...

Or, maybe just spoil it for the reader, because Repeater page should have a minecart example, and I'm considering creating an edge detection page (one of the more useful gadgets thanks to demand for resettable trigger-once)...

Bridge-derailment, impulse-ramped NOT should demonstrate those principles and open readers eyes to powerless possibilities....

Roller-derailment AND and OR should demonstrate that principle, with a note that NOT, AND, and OR are enough to build XOR, NOR, NAND, and XNOR....

Then there's outside links, which should be several of your threads as well as Blackbeard's thread and probably a few others search turns up, room for peeps to talk about their own cool inventions, user pages, and I think it should work pretty well?  In terms of demonstrating ways to do it, offering everything or almost everything needed to do it, and lots more to read for those that feel like it?

27
Breaching aquifers is a good skill to have, but it's really binary.  Once you know how to do it, an aquifer isn't any kind of challenge (unless only soil lies above it), and is even a little nice to have around.

Mountain biomes are just boring.  Limited wood isn't as big of a problem as you might imagine, unless there's neither any wood nor any traders with wood.  Mineral poor can be a bit of a challenge, if you are very military.

Hard to find water limited embarks, thanks to the caverns.  Doesn't seem like an interesting problem to me.  Just means that the injured die.  Salt water is probably more fun that no water, because then you at least struggle to desalinate, whereas otherwise, you just write them off.

Reanimating is fun and challenging.  Evil weather is fun, if you don't just wall it all off.  I'd recommend giving it a shot.  You know what they say about losing.

28
Creative Projects / The Post Finis: A Fantasy Setting
« on: February 18, 2014, 10:48:59 am »
About
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

The Post Finis

   To the people of the Post Finis, there is no single word to refer to their continent, or their world; that would imply something to compare it to.  Various versions of "everywhere" or "all the land" or "all places" might be used for this purpose.
   Instead, the people of the Post Finis refer to their world-- their time and place-- by its time: after the end.


Religion in the Post Finis

   Throughout the Post Finis, there is remarkably little religious tension.  All its cultures are monotheistic; all its people assume that the god of the next culture is the same as the god of their own.  Because of that, there's no name for god-- it's just God.  (Although words for God vary, they're assumed to translate simply and literally.)
   But God of the Post Finis is not the god that readers may be familiar with.  God is largely uncaring, omnipotent but far from omniscient, and anything but benevolent.  The god of the Post Finis could be seen as the personification of Murphy's Law.  While organized religion exists, it promises to protect people from God.  Prayer is a foreign concept: wanting to attract God's attention is considered mad.
   There is no afterlife.  Death is nothingness.  Which is seen as something of a heaven.  The dead are finally out of reach of God.  Likewise, there's no belief in any sort of hell.
   Ethics and morals are believed the business of humanity, not that of God.
   Some variation exists between cultures.  For instance, the Issong believe in a sort of reincarnation, where the goal of religious activity is final death.  Rather than any arguments about reincarnation, most people just assume that the Issong reincarnate, while others don't.
   That's not to say that doctrinal arguments don't exist.  Monasteries seem to exist in part just to argue their doctrines, indistinguishable to most.  They war with each other.  Although monasteries receive financial support from local lords, and expect lip service to the superiority of their dogma, it's unheard of for secular lords to assist monasteries in religious wars.  The obverse, however, is untrue: part of the reason for the financial consideration given the monasteries is their martial support in times of need.
   Animist traditions persist in parts of the Post Finish, but these are seen as natural, rather than religious; the spirits of rivers, trees, the Pony King-- these are seen by some as real, physical beings that are worth pleasing and appeasing, and of a different domain than God.  Although these are frequently referred to as demons, particularly when they're being uncooperative, this shouldn't in any way suggest that they're seen as antagonists to God.
   Atheism is far from unknown, but generally compatible with the theism of the Post Finis.  Lip service can be paid in the absence of belief, and there's no burning at the stake for unbelievers, just the sense that they are a bit too certain of themselves, and deviant in a world where conformity is prized.


The Retainer Class

   Although there is much that varies between cultures of the Post Finis, there is much that is shared.  This includes elements of the retainer class that exists in all cultures (and is mostly portable between: a retainer of Estoria could conceivably play the role of a retainer of Nyitre).
   Is it a hereditary class?  This is a source of much confusion.  Largely, what makes a person a member of the class is the ability to act like a member of the class.  And largely, that makes it a hereditary class.  Should a peasant child take up a sword and claim to be a retainer, and somehow manage to convince others of that fact long enough to swear fealth and survive a battle, then announce his parentage, there would be arguments about his or her status.  Those arguments would be serious enough that he or she would be unlikely to remain a member of the class.  It's not uncommon for adopted children to serve as members of the class, but there's a stigma associated with even adoption into the class that encourages them to silence.
   The distinguishing characteristic of the retainer class, throughout the Post Finis, is the act of carrying a sword.  All cultures ban swords for all but retainers.  Many insist that this is the determining feature of who is and isn't a member of the class: if you are carrying a sword, you are a retainer.  It is not technically murder to kill a person carrying a sword, so long as a sword is used to kill them.  That "technically" is rather important; one's own sword leaves one vulnerable to reprisal, and retainers are not in fact in the habit of killing each other wantonly (outside of war).
   The sword is the ideal weapon of the tax collector.  It is not the ideal weapon of the battlefield.  It's not uncommon for lords to conscript non-retainers for their battles.  Sometimes, the conscripted veterans of many battles take up a sword and claim warrior status.  If they can maintain hold of their swords, who is to say they're not retainers?


Lone Wolves and Stray Dogs

   The problem with retainers is what to do with them all.
   In Estoria, customs have evolved to deal with this problem.  It's unusual for a retainer to sign a contract without undergoing a period of adventure and travel.  These young adventurers, sometimes known as Lone Wolves, are intended to perform great adventures: slay monsters, rescue those in need, right injustive, etcetera.  These adventures form their resume when they return to seek employment.  The reality of their adventures is the realization that true monsters are few and far between and that swords create injustices rather than solve them.  Still, enough lone wolves fail to return from their adventures to allow the remainder to find work.
   A larger problem surrounds those that have lost their contracts.  There are a number of ways this can happen, often through no fault of their own-- for instance, many former retainers of King Shaycob remain-- but there exists a stigma that becomes a self fulfilling prophecy.  Poor and hopeless, bearing a sword, the skills to use it, and little else, crime and banditry become the rule among these stray dogs.

Estoria

   There was a day when one would never say Estoria but only the Kingdom of Estoria, but that Kingdom is fallen or dissolved.  Only its duchies remain.
   The Dukes of Estoria, and many of their subjects, see Estoria as a bastion of freedom and law.  While essentially feudal, relationships are established exclusively through contracts.  The dukes own the land, they contract that land to their vassals, and their vassals contract that land to the families that work the land.  The reality of the contracts, however, is that literacy is uncommon, the contracts include unclear (a lot of "reasonable" this-and-that) language, and the Dukes have all of the wealth.  That's not to say that the Dukes are necessarily evil overlords, but the situation is far from utopic.
   Estoria exists in the northern moors.  The land is not particularly arable, and shepherding is as common as agriculture; before the Issong eradication, these moors were famous for their destriers.  The legends of Estoria hold that they have been migrating southwards over the last several thousand years, chased by a wall of ice that has frozen their ancestral homes.  Indeed, one may visit abandoned Tower Belbourne, many leagues north of any worthwhile land, and from its towers, spy yet another ruin northward.  Legends tell of fantastic palaces even further northward, miles beneath the ice.
   The Dukes of Estoria were famous for their wars and rivalries, but their contracts with King Shaycob of Lynacre lacked provisions for his death.  Smaller skirmishes persist between the dukes' vassals.


The Poisonous Castle

   Tower Lynacre, seat of the King of Estoria, was considered unsiegeable.  Despite its name, Tower Lynacre consisted of several concentric rings of walls that included a market, farm plot, and even a small copse.  Multiple towers bore engines of counter siege, and a tremendous crane was built into the central keep.  Any besieging force would need to outnumber the garrison fifty fold or to surround it for five years.
   When the Issong arrived, more than even that proved true.  Issong probes were massacred.  Underminers met their doom, encountering a web of murder holes beneath Tower Lynacre's walls.  Tower Lynacres's arrows seemed endless.  After a siege of five years, no sally to be found and no sign of hunger or disease, it was presumed that Tower Lynacre either hid vast resources in the hard ground beneath it, or that some sally point must exist hundreds of miles hence.
   And so Tower Lynacre became the first and only victim of Issong's stone poisoners.  Few of the poisoners returned from their task, though the poison can spread many yards through veins underground; no inhabitants of Tower Lynacre were seen to escape.  The Issong siege camp became the new seat of state and market, the new, strangely persist tent city that people call Lynacre, and if one stands on a hill high enough to see over its smoke and streamers, one can see the poisonous castle from new Lynacre.  Approaching it is lethal; one would die a hundred yards before reaching its walls.  The mysteries of Tower Lynacre have never been answered.


The Judges

   The Issong have never seemed very intent on exercising their dominance as they rolled over the kings of the Post Finis: modest tribute in whatever form was least offensive, be it iron, gold, ponies, or boys.  The subjects left kingless seemed, despite their lords' predictions, not to care overly by whom they were governed.  But even though the Issong Empire functions so loosely, some government is necessary.  Part tax collector, part diplomat, part general, and of course part judge, Issong's nomadic officials and their relatively small retinues are responsible for the administration of areas sometimes so vast, especially in the south's Dusts, that years pass between visits.
   Each judge is given great latitude by the Issong.  His goals are to assure at least symbolic tribute returns to the seat of government (currently at Lynacre), to maintain a retinue capable of enforcement, and to train his (for judges are almost always male) successor.  Returning personally to the Emperor, while occasionally necessary in cases of serious sedition or the death of an apprentice or master, is an embarassment.
   Within these broad demands, most judges have found themselves acting with more tact than force; the size of retinue afforded a judge doesn't permit a violent approach.  As the lords and heads-of-state deposed by the Issong empire frequently were responsible for little practical beyond the settling of disputes, these Issong administrators have had to take up the role of magistrate.  Their precise role and judgment depends on the specific culture involved.  Ahnetra, the judge of Estoria, has accepted the responsibility of settling interduchy contract disputes, but intercounty disputes are handled well by the existing administration, and so Ahnetra will probably be capable of managing all of Estoria.  In the Dusts, several judges are needed, but solely due to the area covered; retinues are nearly non-existent.  In Nyitre, several judges are needed full time for purposes of dispute resolution (as well as tax collection), and the judges are rotated not because of a lack of work for the city-state, but to prevent the appearance of impropriety.

29
DF Wiki Discussion / Re: re minecart logic, am i smoking crack?
« on: February 17, 2014, 11:21:54 pm »
I see what you've got on the page now.  I still think there should be more circuit examples on the actual page, because people will clarify the wiki page but not your user page, and because I think your examples are a little difficult to puzzle out.  At least, they have been for me.  For instance, I've been trying to figure out your spin memory, but can't really understand how everything is supposed to work, which is why...

I've started a map so I can figure out some minecart logic issues.  Still just at the minecart basics though (hard to turn off the muscle memory that runs me through the first year, lol).

I'm considering a different way of organizing the page, though.  Rather than providing a phrase-book of mini-circuits like there is for the other pages, it might make sense to pick circuits based on how well they represent different ways of approaching minecart logic.  For instance, newton's cradle memory design, roller derailer AND/OR gates, altered path via bridge/hatch, etc.  Any thoughts on that philosophy?

In any case, have started trying to work minecart logic into a few of the other computing pages.

30
DF Wiki Discussion / Re: re minecart logic, am i smoking crack?
« on: February 16, 2014, 03:44:54 pm »
I started working out my response and quickly realized that I had been, in fact, smoking crack :)

Memory designs are signal-splitters-- that is, they get sent a full signal cycle, and output only half of it (an 'on' or 'off' signal in response to 'on...off'); usually there are two inputs, determining which half of the signal gets sent, with second and subsequent inputs of the same type ignored.

Power-to-signal is just identity, for transmitting signal via load-based mechanical logic.  If you send a PTS a power on-off, you expect it to send full signal cycle.

(At continued risk of being drastically wrong, so corrections, as always, are very welcome)

That out of the way:

I think the newton's cradle memory cell is, while not the smallest, probably the simplest of the memory cells to describe, and perfectly functional.

I think the 2x2 power-to-signal device is probably the most desirable of the PSCs.  (I might edit the mechanical logic page and/or memory pages a bit to talk about PTS.)

Other than that, I don't think any of the circuits on the page should stay; the link to Bloodbeard's thread should be sufficient for people who want more in-depth exploration (and don't mind working their noggin to do so).

There are many logic circuits possible with powered and un-powered minecarts, but powered minecart logic isn't a very useful tool for the AND/NOT/NOR etc. logic gates. Those are smaller, faster and more reliable when done in mechanical logic, while minecarts shine where data storage, signal conversion, repeaters and incrementation are concerned.

I've never messed much with load-based mechanical logic because it never struck me as very intuitive, and I doubt I'm alone.  Of course, the real point to this stuff isn't the practicality.

But I agree that unpowered minecart logic is much, much more useful than powered minecart logic.  I think it's worth giving some time to the differences.  Other logic disciplines have their subdisciplines, after all.

AND/NOT/NOR etc should be on the page, I think, because they're kind of like lego bricks: once you have circuits that can do them, you can build the same device in numerous different ways, without having to understand what's actually happening.

It would be surprising to discover that, for instance, a minecart adder was really tiny, yet a minecart XOR couldn't be designed small, considering that XOR is the heart of addition.  If it was the case, it would certainly be worth going into detail on that.

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