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Other Games / Re: Darklands remake is underway
« on: February 27, 2012, 06:09:44 pm »
Almost 2 weeks, and nothing new?
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Other Games / Re: Darklands remake is underway
« on: January 06, 2012, 06:42:44 pm »Didn't look at the photos there. Oops. So... how is that thing even armor? The gaps in the rings have to be, what, 2-3 inches across? I guess it would protect from being cut with a sword, but it would be no help when getting stabbed with a knife or an arrow. Or just being hit with a big stick I imagine. Though I suppose I'm out of my depth by now, and if you say it's easier to produce then a brigandine, I'll believe your experience.
Yep, really only more effective than leather against slashing attacks (Swords). Though it would add a very slight bit more protection to axes, halberds and maces. But not enough to really count. Since slashing swords were theweapons of choice in most of the world at the time, seems that it would be worth the extra effort for the protection, plus faster and cheaper to produce than brigandine and chain.
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Other Games / Re: Darklands remake is underway
« on: January 06, 2012, 04:23:02 pm »Many Chinese inventions had already made their way to Europe by this time, stirrups being one prime example. So, could someone have made Ring Mail and used it in Medieval Europe? Sure. Was it commonly in use, most likely not.Not only are stirrups Indian, they are also an idea ("let's connect a riders leg to the saddle"), where as a ring mail has an entire manufacturing technique to go with it.
More importantly, while they could conceivably make it, would they? Not really. Between it being a foreign design and being, frankly, inferior to a chain-mail, while requiring almost as much labor (alternatively being more labor intensive then a brigandine in both production and maintenance and only marginally lighter) and finally being rather too expensive to make on a lark, I doubt anyone in Europe would be making these.
I didn't know that the Jin Dynasty was from India?
Paired stirrups were credited with that Dynasty.
What you are talking about is a single toe loop, used more for mounting a horse than staying on it while under way. Not sure I would consider that a stirrup. But again, we are talking semantics, as with Ring Mail.
Not sure how you think making a few dozen 2" or 3" rings, and sewing them to a single leather hauberk at four points on each ring, is more labor intensive than:
1) Making thousands of tiny links, linking and riveting them together to form a full shirt. (Having helped a Dutch friend make a suit in 1986, which we did not rivet, but simply butted the ends of each link. I know how labor intensive this process is first hand.)
or
2) Making dozens of small metal plates, sandwiching them between a layer of cloth and leather, and sewing them in place. (Again, I (With lots of help from others) made a suit of Bridandine for fighting in the SCA in the late 80's, again in Europe, using thick leather instead of metal plates, and two layers of manufactured cloth.)
As for maintenance of said armors, brigandine would have to have the cloth backing replaced at least annualy, that is if you only practiced in it and didn't actually have a sword cut through the material. The edges of the metal plates easily wearing through the cloth with normal wear. Heck, my leather plates wore the cloth bare quickly, through normal use, fighting with duct tape wrapped rattan instead of steel blades.
Chain mail required extensive maintenance, oiling to prevent rust, broken links from combat, requiring repairs.
Seems to me, both are far more labor intensive in creation and repair than Ring Mail would be.
Just sayin'
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Other Games / Re: Darklands remake is underway
« on: January 06, 2012, 06:26:39 am »Not to be pedantic, but since we're already having a discussion about historical accuracy: There's no such thing as "ring mail". That's another video game/D&Dism. Mostly just a matter of semantics, but still.It's not actually a matter of semantics. Chain mail is real. Ring mail is a Victorian invention (apparently someone misread the Bayeux Tapestry). It was also by random chance used in China, but even there it was very rare.
However, very rare does not mean no such thing. That even one example exists from ancient China (More likely Mongolia and the Mongol invasion), proves that it was not a D&D/Video invention. Many Chinese inventions had already made their way to Europe by this time, stirrups being one prime example. So, could someone have made Ring Mail and used it in Medieval Europe? Sure. Was it commonly in use, most likely not.
As for its accuracy in a Medieval Europe based historical context, I think we can all agree, probably not.
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Other Games / Re: Darklands remake is underway
« on: January 05, 2012, 04:25:25 pm »Lamellar seems like a strange choice to substitute in for studded leather, unless you're referring to an all-leather lamellar. Most lamellar suits I've seen are pretty heavy-duty, and about on par with chain if not better.
Ring mail might be a better substitution, although it's not really confirmed whether or not it ever got used historically beyond some illustrations.
The gaps between the plates in lamellar are their vulnerability. That said, I can agree with you, about leather, bone or wood lamellar armors being equivalent to studded leather, and metal plate lamellar being considered closer to scale/chain/ring (Which is sewn cloer together, and with better patterns to make it hareder to slash between rings) armors.
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Other Games / Re: Darklands remake is underway
« on: January 04, 2012, 09:11:45 pm »
@ G-Flex -
I think we are talking past each other.
So, E.G. Gygax messed up and "Invented" Studded Leather Armor. Actually most likely confused over Brigandine as you stated. Still the same end result, a light armor. Though, personally, I would put lamellar into the same group as Leather, and put Brigandine in with Chain and Scale. Leaving Splint and Plate for the Heavy Armor.
Now, define Large Metal Disks and Studs?
I should have been more specific on the size of the "Large Metal Disks". I am talking about 1-2" disks, so in effect more of a lamellar armor.
I will reiterate, Studded Leather is not a Video creation, it was around LONG before Video games existed.
@ Sowelu - Exactly, change Darklands Studded Leather to a more historically accurate Lamellar of the period.
I think we are talking past each other.
So, E.G. Gygax messed up and "Invented" Studded Leather Armor. Actually most likely confused over Brigandine as you stated. Still the same end result, a light armor. Though, personally, I would put lamellar into the same group as Leather, and put Brigandine in with Chain and Scale. Leaving Splint and Plate for the Heavy Armor.
Now, define Large Metal Disks and Studs?
I should have been more specific on the size of the "Large Metal Disks". I am talking about 1-2" disks, so in effect more of a lamellar armor.
I will reiterate, Studded Leather is not a Video creation, it was around LONG before Video games existed.
@ Sowelu - Exactly, change Darklands Studded Leather to a more historically accurate Lamellar of the period.
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Other Games / Re: Darklands remake is underway
« on: January 04, 2012, 05:52:40 am »
G-Flex,
Actually it predates Video Games by decades. It was one of the original armors in basic D&D in 1977.
There is some precedence for it, or a similar armor of Cuirboillee Leather or Lamellar with large metal disks (Read: Studs) in key places on the armor to protect vital areas, and also to provide som emeasure of style.
No, it was not as common to Europe, as plain cuirboillee leather, ring or Brigandine armors. See Jacquerie (Jack of Plates), Indian Chihal'Ta Hazar Masha (Coat of ten thousand nails) or Japanese Kikko armors.
The Jacquerie and Kikko were normally sewn to cloth, but since leather was a very common clothing material of the time, it is conceivable that they could have been made on a simple leather coat instead of cloth, like the Indian Chihal'Ta Hazar Masha.
So, not a Video game creation, and not a verifiable 100% authentic armor type, but close enough to historical types that did exist at the time, to be believable.
Actually it predates Video Games by decades. It was one of the original armors in basic D&D in 1977.
There is some precedence for it, or a similar armor of Cuirboillee Leather or Lamellar with large metal disks (Read: Studs) in key places on the armor to protect vital areas, and also to provide som emeasure of style.
No, it was not as common to Europe, as plain cuirboillee leather, ring or Brigandine armors. See Jacquerie (Jack of Plates), Indian Chihal'Ta Hazar Masha (Coat of ten thousand nails) or Japanese Kikko armors.
The Jacquerie and Kikko were normally sewn to cloth, but since leather was a very common clothing material of the time, it is conceivable that they could have been made on a simple leather coat instead of cloth, like the Indian Chihal'Ta Hazar Masha.
So, not a Video game creation, and not a verifiable 100% authentic armor type, but close enough to historical types that did exist at the time, to be believable.
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Other Games / Re: Darklands remake is underway
« on: January 03, 2012, 05:24:09 pm »
OMG..... Been looking off and on for something like this for years. Even signed in to the SourceForge site mentioned earlier...
This is one of my favorite games of all time, but what made it so was the psuedo historical aspects, alchemy and the saints. The armor, weapons, combat, etc were decent for the technology at the time, but annoying even then.
If you simply added:
A modernized and balanced version of the Alchemy system
A balanced version of the Saints and Saintly powers
The psuedo historical references of the Hanseatic League cities, each with their specific Saint, Armor smiths, Weapons Smith, Alchemist and such.
Historically accurate armor and weapon types, and their advantages and disadvantages when compared to each other.
To:
A more modern and complex computerized combat system
A wider group of abilities and skills
A more modern graphics,
You would have an awesome game.
Not sure you would even have to re-invent the wheel actually. As you might be able to use existing game engines to work with. The Oblivion engine as others have recommended, although nice, would not work for the 4 character party concept of a single player game.
For example: The AD&D engine used in NWN1 or NWN2 could work perfectly.
A combat system should be behind the scenes, and with both NWN1 and NWN2, you can have a "Pause," make decisions "Unpause", engage in combat, "Pause," make decisions gameplay. Just like in darklands.
The AD&D skills could easily be adapted to the Alchemy, Skill Use, Combat, and Hit Points of the original Darklands too. An advantage being, that the Raubritters, and other encounters could scale with the party.
All you would have to do, is strip the existing God/Spell/Crafting from the engine, and add one for Alchemy, Saints and Darklands skills. Plus, there is lots of custom player created contect that could be added to make the world more intense.
Just my $.02
CT
Just an observation from a fellow fan of the game.
This is one of my favorite games of all time, but what made it so was the psuedo historical aspects, alchemy and the saints. The armor, weapons, combat, etc were decent for the technology at the time, but annoying even then.
If you simply added:
A modernized and balanced version of the Alchemy system
A balanced version of the Saints and Saintly powers
The psuedo historical references of the Hanseatic League cities, each with their specific Saint, Armor smiths, Weapons Smith, Alchemist and such.
Historically accurate armor and weapon types, and their advantages and disadvantages when compared to each other.
To:
A more modern and complex computerized combat system
A wider group of abilities and skills
A more modern graphics,
You would have an awesome game.
Not sure you would even have to re-invent the wheel actually. As you might be able to use existing game engines to work with. The Oblivion engine as others have recommended, although nice, would not work for the 4 character party concept of a single player game.
For example: The AD&D engine used in NWN1 or NWN2 could work perfectly.
A combat system should be behind the scenes, and with both NWN1 and NWN2, you can have a "Pause," make decisions "Unpause", engage in combat, "Pause," make decisions gameplay. Just like in darklands.
The AD&D skills could easily be adapted to the Alchemy, Skill Use, Combat, and Hit Points of the original Darklands too. An advantage being, that the Raubritters, and other encounters could scale with the party.
All you would have to do, is strip the existing God/Spell/Crafting from the engine, and add one for Alchemy, Saints and Darklands skills. Plus, there is lots of custom player created contect that could be added to make the world more intense.
Just my $.02
CT
Just an observation from a fellow fan of the game.
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