Bay 12 Games Forum

Given the raws, I will be happy to work out the properties of divine cloth both theoretically and experimentally.  Is "divine cloth" actually used to make fabric clothes, or is it armor?  If it is fabric, then the protection offered will be very small (I think).  Even adamantine cloth offers almost no protection from attacks.  The only way I am aware of fabric offering significant protection is on demons, where due to their huge size and a bug with scaling of clothes the layer thickness of cloth becomes too large for most weapons to penetrate. 

Then again, I haven't actually tested to see if cloth is capable of slowing or deflecting weak attacks, so I can definitely look into that.  The only thing I ever tried was putting clothes on under armor, and found that they offered no additional protection against vanilla bolts/arrows, but nothing does anything against vanilla projectiles so that doesn't really prove anything.

Here are the raws for new Metals, they are all the same except for name/sphere relation and are generally better than steel and worse than adamantite

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Ruspstrasp(   /    inorganic_generated [OBJECT:INORGANIC] [INORGANIC:DIVINE_1] [GENERATED] [DIVINE] [DISPLAY_COLOR:0:0:1] [BUILD_COLOR:0:0:1] [STATE_COLOR:ALL_SOLID:BLACK]& [USE_MATERIAL_TEMPLATE:METAL_TEMPLATE]( [STATE_NAME_ADJ:ALL_SOLID:searing metal] [MATERIAL_VALUE:300] [SPEC_HEAT:7500] [MELTING_POINT:NONE] [BOILING_POINT:NONE] [ITEMS_WEAPON] [ITEMS_WEAPON_RANGED] [ITEMS_AMMO] [ITEMS_DIGGER]
 [ITEMS_ARMOR]
 [ITEMS_ANVIL] [ITEMS_HARD]
 [ITEMS_METAL] [ITEMS_BARRED] [ITEMS_SCALED] [SOLID_DENSITY:1000] [LIQUID_DENSITY:1000] [MOLAR_MASS:20000] [IMPACT_YIELD:1000000] [IMPACT_FRACTURE:2000000] [IMPACT_STRAIN_AT_YIELD:0] [COMPRESSIVE_YIELD:1000000] [COMPRESSIVE_FRACTURE:2000000] [COMPRESSIVE_STRAIN_AT_YIELD:0] [TENSILE_YIELD:1000000] [TENSILE_FRACTURE:2000000] [TENSILE_STRAIN_AT_YIELD:0] [TORSION_YIELD:1000000] [TORSION_FRACTURE:2000000] [TORSION_STRAIN_AT_YIELD:0] [SHEAR_YIELD:1000000] [SHEAR_FRACTURE:2000000] [SHEAR_STRAIN_AT_YIELD:0] [BENDING_YIELD:1000000] [BENDING_FRACTURE:2000000] [BENDING_STRAIN_AT_YIELD:0] [MAX_EDGE:12000] [SPHERE:TORTURE]   

For starters, sorry if this has already been said, but I skimmed the thread and didn't see a clear explanation yet.

I agree that the new metals will be just slightly less powerful than adamantine, at least for armor.  Their effectiveness as armor (at least against projectiles, and I believe the behavior in melee is similar) is determined by (IMPACT_FRACTURE-IMPACY_YIELD/2) (see the wiki).  Adamantine has IMPACT_FRACTURE=IMPACY_YIELD=5000000, so IF-IY/2 = 2500000.  The new metals will have IF-IY/2=1500000, so they will deflect projectiles with 3/5 the momentum which can be blocked by adamantine (note that neither can block the insane momenta of vanilla bows/crossbows, but they are of course quite effective against melee weapons). 

As far as making weapons, they may actually be better than adamantine against everything except divine metal armor, because they have a higher density than adamantine (1000 vs 200), and almost as high a SHEAR_FRACTURE (2000000 vs 5000000).  Higher density means higher momentum, which in turns means higher damage and better armor penetration.  The high SHEAR_FRACTURE will cause edged weapons made of these metals to ignore any armor made of metals without SHEAR_FRACTURE and/or SHEAR_YIELD of at least 2000000 (everything except themselves and adamantine).  Adamantine, with its even higher SHEAR_YIELD, can also cut through the divine metals, but not itself.  Since neither metal can ignore adamantine armor, the divine metal, with its higher mass, stands a better chance of penetrating adamantine because it will have a higher momentum.  This is definitely true for ranged weapons, and I suspect also for melee but I have not yet worked out all the details of melee mechanics so I'm not sure (it's possible that attackers could swing heavier weapons slower, giving them similar momentum to lighter ones, but the conventional wisdom is this is not the case and heavier weapons are better).  The superior material properties of adamantine may also cause it to do more damage and/or penetrate deeper into flesh, but I am not sure about this either.

In any case, I am working on melee testing now, and would definitely like to include the divine metals.  I can't seem to find the raws for them - which file contains them?  I guess I can just copy the numbers from this post, but it would be nice to know where DF keeps them.

I think the problems here are that DF assumes that you have a continuous force behind the bolt and that the Armor-metal is only paperthin so to say. Imagine a block of balistic gelatin, if you fire a bullet at it, it will bore in but somewhere down the way it will stop.

If the simulation assumes that the projectile has a continuous force behind it, it would go all the way through.

The second point of failure might be that the Armor is virtually paperthin in the simulation so that the projectile dosent dissipate enough energy (if at all) on the Armor since the thickness of the armor isnt taken into account.

I'm not sure I understand what you are saying, but I don't think it's correct.  The reason bolts/arrows defeat plate armor is very simple.  They are modeled as being very massive (about 1 kg), traveling at very high speed, and having a very small impact area.  There is nothing about the force being applied continuously or the armor being very thin.  As far as I can tell (from extensive testing, see the wiki article and previous thread I linked in the OP), the mechanics for armor are fine, more or less (good armor stops melee attacks most of the time).  It's just that bolts and arrows have such enourmous momentum that they cannot be stopped.

Also bolts should be more deadly against Chainmail - if the bolt hit, normally it should rupture one or two rings of the mail thus removing any resistance from the armor. As it stands now i would think the [STRUCTURAL_ELASTICITY_CHAIN_ALL] token (that raises the "STRAIN_AT_YIELD" to 50000) is what makes the chainmail better at blocking arrows/bolts.

Agreed.  The [STRUCTURAL_ELASTICITY_CHAIN_ALL] causes armor to convert incoming edged attacks to blunt attacks.  This makes them slightly less deadly, but still quite devastating in the case of bolts/arrows.  I believe that chainmail can fail to convert edged to blunt if the attack has extremely high momentum, but even bolts/arrows do not have enough momentum for this, and I can't remember if this is true.

isn't it kind of ridiculous that arrows get through steel plate by default anyway? i mean, at very close ranges maybe. but at long? the arrow will bleed off a ton of it's kinetic force at even medium ranges. no way a high quality steel armored dwarf should die to a +bone bolt+

just seems silly. if he gets hit in the throat or something maybe, but the chest? makes no sense.

By default, plate armor does not cover the neck or face (including the throat) or upper arms, and therefore would provide no protection to these areas even if it did normally stop bolts.  Chainmail covers the neck and upper arms, but I don't think it covers the face.

Since this thread seems pretty well derailed anyway, what I would ideally like to see is modeling projectiles as hitting armor at some angle, with the momentum transferred (and hence damage and armor penetration) proportional to the cosine of the incident angle.  This would mean that even crappy armor would have some chance to deflect projectiles if they hit at a glancing angle, while a perfectly true hit might penetrate even good armor.  In the simplest case, you could just still assume each part is hit with likelihood proportional to its size, and treat all parts as spheres.  Then the probability to hit at given angle is just a simple function which does not depend on body part size [Edit - just set the angle equal to asin(sqrt(Rand)), where Rand is a random number equally distributed between 0 and 1].

If you want to get even more realistic, you could allow shooters to target a given body part, and then calculate how close they come to hitting the center of this (based on skill, range etc).  A miss would then have a chance of hitting other connected body parts, depending on their size and how far away they are from the targeted part.  This would require somewhat more complicated calculations, but would be fun as you could realistically target body parts.  Also, this would make legendary archers more deadly than novices, as they would be able to hit targets dead center.

I suspect Toady has something more detailed (if not this, then something else) in mind, which is why he's not bothered to fix the current system - he probably wants to do a major rewrite at some future time to make ranged attacks more realistic.

One of the biggest issues with ranged combat is the fact that getting a bone hit on anything is extremely easy and makes anything instantly pass out in vanilla due to the absurd amount of pain receptors.

and mind you this isn't a momentary drop to the floor, this is a very lengthy loss of consciousness
which also means that whatever chipped the bone gets a lot of free shots
which means more pain
which means more passing out
which means more shots
which means more pain
which means that you are dead, kiddo
dead

Yes, all of that.  Particularly in adventure mode, where there is no backup squad to come rescue you.  In adventure mode, if you get hit with a projectile, you are almost always dead.  And chainmail really doesn't help, as you still get just as many chipped and broken bones through chainmail (chainmail just converts edged damage to blunt, which causes all the broken bones).

Projectiles are very effective at piercing armor due to their extremely small contact areas. Here's a quick cut and paste from the wiki that explains it.

This is exactly right.  The contact area of bolts and arrows is (and has been for a while) only 2.  This means that even adamantine plate armor provides no protection from them.  For example, wood bolts (density about 600) have a mass of 0.09.  Since this is less than 1, they are fired at SHOOT_MAXVEL=1000, and have a momentum of 1000*0.09 = 90. 

The maximum momentum bolt which can be stopped by armor is about (from the wiki page, ignoring armor user skill and quality)
momentum = (IF-IY/2)*round100(C*S)/(2400000) where for adamantium
IF=IMPACT_FRACTURE=5000000
IY=IMPACT_YIELD=5000000
C=CONTACT_AREA (of the bolt) = 2
S=LAYER_SIZE (of the armor) = 15 or 20 (depending on which piece)
round100(C*S) = 100, because C*S is less than 100
(IF-IY/2)*round100(C*S)/(2400000) = 104

Meaning adamantine armor can stop bolts with momentum up to 104, and can just barely stop wood bolts (momentum 90).  All other armor cannot stop even wood, and adamantine cannot stop any metal bolts.

If you want protection from projectile attacks then stick with chain armor.

Also mostly correct.  Chain armor will convert edged damage to blunt damage, meaning that instead of causing tears and bleeding bolts will chip bones and bruise internal organs.  In fort mode, chain armor is good enough protection, as if one of your dwarves passes out from a chipped bone the rest of your army can probably save him.  In adventure mode there is nothing that can save you from ranged attacks, other than maybe this

I think the only viable defense against projectiles in DF is legendary+ shield user. Unless that has been nerfed.

Plate armor provides protection from blunt damage such as mace and hammer attacks.

This however, is not quite correct.  Edged weapons with larger contact areas definitely can be deflected by plate armor.  I believe it follows a similar mechanism as ranged weapons, but I haven't done extensive testing and don't know how "forces" are calculated for melee attacks.  Anyhow, things like axes and sword slashes can be stopped, but I'm not sure about say spear points (contact area 20).  I believe these could be stopped at least sometimes by steel/candy armor, but I haven't confirmed this.  [Edit - even copper armor appears to deflect stabs from (copper) spears most, if not all, of the time.  This further illustrates how silly ranged weapons are right now - armor which gives 100% protection against all melee attacks should at least do something against ranged attacks.  On that note, does anyone know of a melee attack which is not deflected by armor (provided it meets the material requirements explained below?)]

One other important detail - armor ONLY has an effect if it is made of a material with SHEAR_YIELD and/or SHEAR_FRACTURE equal or better to the weapon, where adamantium>steel>iron=bronze>copper>silver>wood.  Otherwise it does nothing.  This goes for both plate and chain armor, and melee and ranged attacks.

I feel that the wiki page (which I mostly wrote) may not explain this clearly enough.  Maybe I need some plots or something?  Suggestions would be appreciated...

[Edit - DISCLAIMER - it does not actually appear that there is any significant difference in the power of ranged weapons in 40.XX vs 34.11.  I had heard rumors that they were, but so far all tests show them to be equal.  If you have evidence of differences, I am VERY interested]

I heard some rumors that ranged weapons are even more deadly in this version than the last, so I decided to do some testing, following the methods outlined in this thread  Here are some initial results, and I will try to update with more details as I complete more testing.

1) Initial results suggest there is no change the the protection armor offers against projectiles, as outlined on the wiki here.  For vanilla DF, this is somewhat irrelevant as plate armor offers absolutely no protection, but by adjusting the raws for [SHOOT_FORCE] of crossbows I found that the force required to pierce adamantium armor with copper bolts is unchanged since 34.11:
[Edit - in vanilla DF SHOOT_FORCE is 1000, which is over 10 times what can be blocked by even adamantine armor.  The crazily high forces combined with tiny contact area render plate armor useless against projectiles in both 34.11 and 40.03]

As an aside, this deflection vs. force curve has an interesting kink in it.  These results are for shooting at custom creatures with only an upper and lower body:
and for some reason deflections occur off the upper body at a higher force than the lower body, as illustrated by repeating the experiment with the breastplate removed and the blobs wearing only greaves:
I thought maybe this was because greaves have different layer thickness than breastplates, so I copied all the properies of breastplates to greaves and repeated, but obtained the same result (the "uniform" dataset), so I am puzzled as to what is causing the difference.  Anyhow, back to the main point.

2) The rate of fire for crossbows and bows seems to be much higher in this version than the last one.  As far as I can tell, ranged weapons fire as the same speed as melee attacks in 40.03, while they were much slower in 34.11.  I have not quantified this yet, but significantly increasing the rate of fire definitely would make ranged weapons (even more) deadly.
[Edit - my initial testing does NOT show a significant difference in fire rate between 40.03 and 34.11.  It appears that melee attacks are roughly twice as fast as ranged attacks in both versions, but this is very hard to quantify as melee attacks by the AI are quite variable.  In any case, it's not a major difference].

3)  Ranged weapons can now completely destroy body parts using the pulping mechanics (at least I assume this is what's going on).  In my tests, I found that body parts could be "mostly cut away" or "cloven asunder", which both are fatal to Arena Blobs.  This caused the majority of Blob targets to be killed in tests where deflection was not 100%, while no blobs were killed at any forces tested (up to F=128) in 34.11.  It is not clear how this would impact the deadliness of bolts under vanilla conditions, as I believe these mechanics require the same part to be stuck multiple times, and most living creatures will give in to pain/bleed to death before a single body part is struck repeatedly.  However maybe at high force a single bolt hit can now cleave body parts?  This will be my next line of investigation.

Anyhow, I would like to do a lot more testing of this, but my time is somewhat limited as I have a 1 month old baby (who currently wants to be fed).  If anyone else is interested in pursuing this, I have a library of perl scripts and DF macros that I use for running automated large scale testing in the arena, which I would be happy to share.  They are set up to run on Linux, but it should be relatively easy to convert them to Windows if needed.

As promised, here is a !!beautiful elf site!!
It required modding in a dragon adventurer to get sufficient burning - setting fires by "igniting" things was not enough.  Even dragonfire set fires don't really spread very well, so I just had to breathe fire on everything.  In the arena, fires set by magma would spread nicely from the grass up to the trees, and then burn the whole tree, but I'm not good enough at modding to get magma in adventure mode...