Bay 12 Games Forum

Yeah, as I've previously explained, you can get to "God almost certainly does not exist" from observation of the world plus two very basic premises that I'm confident that you (Wolfy) would agree with:

1. When considering which theory out of two different theories about how the world might be is probably true, you should always prefer less complicated theory to more complicated theory. In mathematical terms, P(A) ≥ P(A & B) for all events A and B.
2. The complexity of a theory is equal to the number of bits required to specify a perfect simulation of that theory in a universal Turing machine (ie. an idealized computer).

Because God is a very very complicated thing to simulate, all of the theories that specify God & the World are more complicated than theories that are just the World without simulating God. And this means that, unless we find evidence that rules out all of the theories without God that are less complex than the simplest non-ruled out theory with God, we should end up preferring a no-God theory to all of the God theories.

I disagree, with God, only one thing has to be true, that God exists, if that is true then evreything can be exsplained by god.
 with out God
Laws have to be made in the universe with OUT  any reason for them being made, why was gravty made long before planets? what causes gravtiy, how do these things "react" what caused them to react? how where they made to be able to react?
Why dose everything work? why dose it look logical?
 (with out laws the universe would not be here)
thats just the start

You claim it is, I disagree, I believe in god for the same reason except that IMO God is a lot less complex then evrey sing TRILLION Pound TRILLION of things harping on their own


where is your proof God is more "complex"? we dont even know half the stuff of the unverse, we dont know how complex it is to be told the truth, for all we knw some things are so complex we can NEVER know the awnser

and the biggest problem is even if we DO take this stance, it still can be wrong, both ways.
so I think the point is mute
We cant in any way really know which is more complex as we dont know  a fraction of either of them, and even if we did, it dont means its right or should be followed, for example it was simpler to say the world was flat, that evloution did not exist, that we had always been here, that whites where "better" then blacks based on skin color
all wrong of course
if anything history has shown not to believe that as its almost always wrong, how ever it dose have its place, but due to all of these I dont think it belongs in this subject

You cant say "God almost certainly dose not exist" no science has proven beyond a showdown of a doubt some power made all of this posible, doubt they ever will

One side requires a massive amount of faith, the other requires that the person cannot accept something without evidence. It's not like believing something is a choice, it's just something that arises based on what a person knows (unless they try really hard at lying to themselves until they start to actually believe it; but I can't think of any place where that happens frequently.)

Wrong, faith is belving with out seeing, or really knowing, you, by definition are saying
"if I cant prove it, it don't exist"
thats faith that if its not there where you can see it, then it don't exist
you put your faith in evince and that if we cant find God right now, it means he cant exist, ecen when history shows there are plenty of things we could not proved existed in till recently

Grek, you make a good point, but the reason why was they where trying to use this as "proof" that God dont exist.

We dont have truth when ti comes either way, both sides require faith, we are not at the level where we can prove or disprove God, so we cant, and so we talk about what we can, the belies styles and why people follow God or not

He keeps saying "did not try"
"refuse to try" etc acting like because he did it means I can, he even mentions "having no respect for me" in multiple posts

He is NOT on my side, he is spreading lies and making look like I never tried
I've said it mutiple times, (most of them directed at him, its in my sig that I've tried, he STILL keeps saying it) what more can  I get him to stop saying lies?

The problem is, if he wanted to leave beyond some sign of intelligent design he would simply not allow humanity to find something out then. We've already figured out how evolution works, how gravity works, and a large amount of physics that apply to the earth. We're constantly figuring out new things about life, and the only reason why we only practically know not even half of why the universe works as it does is because we've haven't had a whole lot of time to do so. I mean any real gigantic breakthroughs in science that changed how we saw the world really only happened in the past two hundred years.

would that be free will then?
He lets you know thr truth of how the universe works, maybe his miracles are not "miracles" (in the sense they cant be explained) but that they can, he has made this whole thing work the way it dose
The more we find out, the more we see how everything works together
finding out things dose not disprove God, the fact that everything works is EXACTLY what intelligent deign means.

Also, why would god go out of his way to further prove his existence? Being all-knowing, he wouldn't have to worry about people to stop believing him. He'd probably just leave all of the sinners and non-believers to go to hell then, knowing they'd never believe in him in the first place.

Two words, free will, yes God CAN see the future, but we are with in time, what that means is all the non believes have gone to hell (to God)
But it has not happen yet in this time
Put it this way, we have not yet reached the point where it happens, as for why prove his coexistence? like I said free will, yes he sees the future, but WE STILL pick what happens and so him showing evinced will get the most people he can to come over.

So put it this way, if god sat down and did nothing did not sent Christ etc, Christina would not be here, God may not be worshiped anymore, and so he did these things with in those time lines

He dose things because while he knows what happens (in the sense of he sees all outcomes)
if he don't get invited then our choice will be not with him.

just because the future "happens" don't mean its set in stone, what if it can change?

It's not a choice because the guy who built the universe, or escape pods, knows exactly which one will work. And not only that, but he knows what you, or I, need to believe him.

But he doesn't tell us. He doesn't even tell us he exists.

That's why it isn't a proper choice, because if I had the right information, of course I'd choose the working pod.

In this situation, the guy who built the pods would be legally considered negligent at least. And since he knows but does not say, he'd also be guilty of murder through inaction.

But you dont know that, the guy who built the space pod dont know which one will get shot down by bad guys.
God knows what choices you will make, but what proof do you have him making this universe means that he picked "any" of our choices

put it this way
Universe 1
universe 2
universe 3

Nothing at all says that each universe has a preset choices, they could all be the same in the end, what I'm saying is him saying
"Universe one" dont mean we will have this convo each time, heck if he restarted it, its possible it would be a diffreint outcome

(I'm not saying thats how it works, just thats ONE way it COULD work)
put shortly, when he made this universe, I dont believe he said "okay looking, ah this is the one where he dies by the worst death ever)
I think its more of he sees all possible outcomes and choices mixed, and if needs to can look to the future to see which one we did pick

But WE not god, picked it, he did not pick a universe that binds us to anything, we still pick

Also he did tell you he existed, in the bible, in the story's passed down, the fact you are here, its all evdince of something more working but you look at it and go "meh its something else"

But until then, I laugh at you.

Like when they made the plane? said the world was round? said evolution happen?
Yeah being on the laughing side history wise dont turn out so well did it?

Please rewrite this section in proper English, I have no idea what you're trying to say here.

Universe 1
universe 2
inverse 3
etc all the way to for ever
THEY ALL NOT set by our choices, they where made and THEN we made the choices, universe 1 is not universe one because I tap dance with monkeys, I'm saying there is no proof that him picking unverse 1 means this list of choices compared to 2
We dont know how universes work

Even if the odds that a universe randomly creates life were low, the odds that a universe randomly creates life given that there are people in the universe discussing it are exactly 1.
If you ask a random person "Have you won the lottery", then you'll very likely get a "No" back. But if you ask a random lottery winner, you'll always get a "Yes". Now let's assume that all non-lottery-winners are neutered. After a few generations, everyone will have a lottery winner as an ancestor. Now imagine somebody saying "OMFG MY GREAT-GRAMPA WON THE LOTTERY IM SO LUCKY THEREFORE GOD MUST EXIST". Sounds stupid, right? That's how you sound right now.

You would be wrong. I'm not saying ANYTHING is or not, I'm just saying WE DONT KNOW HOW THE UNIVERSES WORK
We cant say for sure him picking universe 1 means I will do X

Okay, you believe in whichever god is real, and you believe in a loving, forgiving, non-controlling god. Do these gods know each other? 

You sir fail, for the last time, I dont know which God is real, I believe mine is, hell, ALL GODS could be real.
Your assuming the real God is NOT mine, why?

God didn't create the antitoxins. Scientists reverse-engineered the universe rulebooks and exploited them. Also, don't forget that God would also have created the toxins themselves.

oh so when science dose something its science that did it but when its bad things god made it where it could happen?
Pick and chose much?
Yes God created the toxins, they have their uses, they help many things live, just like a cat must eat, or a human must eat so to do microlifes, and just like we protect our selfs so to poison things

No, the fun thing is that since God already knows the future, he will already know what we pick. Since he can make any universe, he can also make one with versions of us that are the same in all respects except that we would pick another world in this specific case.

You forgetting two things
A. your assuming God created the universes based on the choices we made in those, what proof do you have its not?
B. Your assuming that him "picking" a universe means the future cant be changed, my idea is he sees evre possible choice in each area, but not all of them will happen, he also sees each one so that they all happen at one point, when we not god pick it, he did not force it, he made the universe and said "go" and we did what we wanted, God did not make a universe where I tap dance, he made universe where I could PICK to tap dance

Okay, so you're a theist agnostic now. We're making progress

You miss the point, I BELIVE he exists, but I cant prove it was my point, I've been adding that or words to that affect every post, nothing to do with me changing anything at all.
Answer those questions please.

God didn't create those things, people did. Extremely well educated and intelligent scientists created those cures, there's actually direct proof indisputable proof that Jonas Salk create the vaccine for polio. Seriously, this might be a shock to you but look it up. But let's assume that in your argument that god really did magically cure this disease. He also created it, but why? To punish mankind? You could say that, but why would an all-knowing and all-powerful god create a disease to punish mankind, then cure it. Then do the same thing over and over again throughout history.

So your willing to put that6 God made it possible for evil to happen and so its on him but, when something good happens it was because of science and God deserves nothing?
As to why do it? most desire come form things that are bad for you, colds come form Bactria, which is alive, and thats how it lives, just like a tiger eats a bunny to live
As we eat a chicken to live
they to Infectious disease have to
Autoimmune diseasee: bit harder how ever that cause we really don't know what causes it and if we always had it, maybe inbreeding caused it the first time, maybe it was something else, but dont assumed it just "happen" we really don't know enough to say why it happens science wise even.
An example "Addison's disease"
"The condition arises from problems with the adrenal gland, "primary adrenal insufficiency", and can be caused by damage by the body's own immune system, certain infections"
Thats why that one happens our body gets danged and so cause problems
Can I exspalin every one and why it happens?
No, but neither can science, that dont make science false or less real

some happen because of our diet, some happen because of sexual activity
How did they form? when? why?

Your science cant answer it, but you expect us to?
I belive god has the awnser, but I don't, I'm not him

So do you deny that if God created the things that cure these things its not a miracal? yes or no, don't mention if you dont think he did, we are talking about him as if he dose exist, and how "bad" you think he is, therefor he dose exist (for this augment)_ and created everything, and ever cure we have

Are those not miracles?
would you not say God making us in the first place evince of him?

Well, God differs from your mom that he picked the version of you that picked the guitar, and not the version of you that didn't. So God decided to make you so you pick the guitar, effectively deciding whether you pick the guitar or not. Your mom can't do that.

you mis my point, what proof you have god picked ANY version?
What if every time god makes a universe, its not "who picks what" clean slate they get to pick.
What if, he makes the universe and I can do say 5 choices, every universe he made I pick something I, it was not the universe he picked that made it happen

it be like a video game, evreytime we play its diffident, we choice evreytime,


where at all dose it say a universe is decide by what action we all take? what if each and every one of them is open to what ever that person picks?
so in this case, he did not pick it, it just a possible outcome he sees, he did not say "I'm going to make the one where Wolf picks jumping of a bridge" its clean slate wolfy 2 picks, of his own free will to do it, but wolfy 3 dose not, its not of cause what one he put them in.

A time traveller sees the future. God picks out the future.

I disagree, you will find no proof of this.
God knows our future because he can see in forward in time where we have already made our choices

At first, people looked at the ground, and seeing that it certainly looks flat, they took that as evidence that the whole world is flat (and since nobody had contrary evidence, they were fine with believing that).
Then, people started taking closer looks at the moon, the sun and the stars from different points on Earth, finding evidence for the fact that the world is actually round. Smart people accepted the evidence (Babylonians, Mayans, Galileo etc). Others refused to accept.

See how those people always have had a good reason to think stuff? Now see how this doesn't apply to God?

and it took time to find this evdince, just cause we dont have it now dont mean we cant have it later
nothing says we cant find evinced of God

Well, since there is life on our planet, and since there are other planets, it is only natural to believe that other planets have life too. A few centuries ago, people generally believed that there was life on every planet (also the moon), since all planets with testable inhabitation status (read: Earth) were inhabited.

Okay, since there is life on earth then odds are something made it, since there is so many laws at play for this to work out at all it seems like something had to made it (read God)

Okay, you say it was something intelligent. But why in the world would that be exactly the narcisstic split-personality no-sense-of-priority devil-blaming eccentric-rule-inventing vengeful-but-all-forgiving christian God?

#1 you will see my believe is its not Satan fault but our own, we choice to sin, so my god dose not do that
#2 rule inventing, mankind has been inventing rules since the dawn of time, he dose nothing there that we have not
#3 it dont have to be that God (thats not my God) it could be aliens, it could be a turtle, it could be anything
but when I look at history see how this connects to everything  and how many follow it I cant help but feel SOMETHING is there, do I think any of us got it right 100%? NO, but none of the others seem close to me

dont mean they are not


SOOOOO you been wrong on what I believe, and dont get the idea that I admit I don't know if its that God or not...
have you even tried to read my posts? I know it can be hard, but the points where I point these things out are (realistically) good English, and said several times, others did not seem to have a problem getting that point at least....
Also my God is  powerful loving caring all-forgiving christian God.
You do not read that when you look at the bible, that's FINE, neither dose your family members most likely (and they will have diffident form you too in most cases)

but to me God is a loving God, who dose not control  our every move, we, and we alone are to blame for our problems, we choice to sin, he dont make us.


Put it this way, you read the bible and see bad, and everything that can go wrong
someone else reads it and sees fairy tale
others read it and see nothing
etc
It dont mean the God you, I, or the pope reads out of it is the real God