Bay 12 Games Forum

Ugh, this discussion is moving way too quick for me.

The Bible forbids sex outside of marriage. Inside marriage, you're welcome to do whatever you and your spouse enjoy. Such is the purpose of sex. Whether or not marriage includes homosexual couples is up for debate.

Using "it's natural" to defend homosexuality from a Biblical perspective is wrong. Sin is the natural state of the world. It is natural for both humans and animals to lie, murder, and steal. That does not make any of these things okay.
Conversely, it is also natural to love, to show compassion, to be altruistic. These things are good. Natural and unnatural are not indicative of whether something is good or bad.

...

Quote from: Icefire2314 on December 08, 2015, 09:35:03 pm

Quote from: origamiscienceguy on December 08, 2015, 09:32:37 pm

well baptism isn't what saves you, it is belief in Jesus as your savior. When did you make that decision?

Pope Francis on Atheists and Heaven

EDIT: I meant to post more than just the link. In short Pope Francis says that Atheists can go to Heaven if they are good people but ultimately it is up to God to judge.

That's un-Biblical.

Papal Infallibility.

Animals on Murder:Animals do not murder for the same reasons humans do. A carnivore may kill you to eat. A herbivore may kill you if it feels you may want to eat it. Humans may kill you because you disagree with them.
Animals on Theft: I hope I needn't be alarmed if my phone goes missing due to a passing bird. Animals typically steal food from humans. Humans also do that if they get hungry enough. If I am starving and steal a loaf of bread from a baker, am I condemned for my theft or he for his greed?
Animals on Lying: If an animal starts talking to me, let alone lying to me...

You are confused.

I am arguing about what the faith's doctrines ACTUALLY SAY.

That is not an affirmation of truthfulness in what those doctrines say.

Again, I am an agnostic.

Right, I misunderstood you. Apologies.
Still, however, my counterargument to that remains valid.

Quote from: Icefire2314 on December 08, 2015, 08:29:17 pm

I don't entirely agree. Heterosexual intercourse is also pleasurable even if done exactly as prescribed by the Church, and it is the same pleasure you get from doing it in the ways the Church is against. If it is the pleasure is the sin, then God created us wherein one sins during sex.

The difference is between making love and fucking, not pleasurable and banal

Then you say that gay couple are incapable of "making love", of feeling true love for a partner and any sexual act between them is an act of base lust?

We know what God has commanded and what is forbidden; it is the straight path and is the only way in which man can be safe and at peace, protecting his honour, his mind and his health, in accordance with the natural disposition with which God has created man. Something innate is not free from being innately sinful, just as someone being born innately with a penchance for violence or addiction is.
Some filthy modernist papal heretics have tried to attack Christianity and its rulings; they have denounced divorce and plural marriage and permitted alcohol. Look at the state of our societies to see the result - the state of misery which our societies have reached.

If we are going to say that being straight is the only way to be at peace then we can take a brief look at most of my childhood and look at the agony being gay has caused me (I am 17, up until last year when I found a way to reconcile my sexuality and faith, I had been in agony over my sexuality for anywhere between 6-9 years of self-torment). I will not go into specifics on how my pysche has been affected by constantly battling with myself over years when my pysche was still forming. Imagine what an infant, whose pysche is also still forming, would turn out like if it was abused.

When we accepted divorce, murder took its place. When we rejected plural marriage, men started to take mistresses instead. When we allowed alcohol, all kinds of shameful and immoral actions became widespread.
Gays and lesbians both go against the natural order which God has created in mankind – and also in animals – whereby the male is inclined towards the female, and vice versa.
Whoever goes against that goes against the natural disposition of mankind.
The spread of homosexuality has caused man diseases which neither the east nor the west can deny exist because of them. Even if the only result of this perversion was AIDS – which attacks the immune system in humans – that would be enough.
It also causes the breakup of the family and leads people to give up their work and study because they are preoccupied with these perversions.

How do gay humans deny the natural order God created in all other animals?
AIDS does not exist as a result of gays. It is unfortunate chance that the first person to spread the disease was gay. If it was a woman to her husband who then went and slept with a prostitute that point wouldn't even exist.
If one is lustful, yes, it can destroy families and to lose works and studies. If one is a lustful straight person or a lustful gay person. If you're lustful and you like to fuck trees for all I care it would do the same. It is the lust not the "perversion".

Quote

Both of them – fornication and homosexuality – involve immorality that goes against the wisdom of Allaah’s creation and commandment. For homosexuality involves innumerable evil and harms, and the one to whom it is done would be better off being killed than having this done to him, because after that he will become so evil and so corrupt that there can be no hope of his being reformed, and all good is lost for him, and he will no longer feel any shame before Allaah or before His creation. The semen of the one who did that to him will act as a poison on his body and soul. The scholars differed as to whether the one to whom it is done will ever enter Paradise. There are two opinions which I heard Shaykh al-Islam (may Allaah have mercy on him) narrate.”

Top kek
He's too breeki

So if we are gay we are better off dead, more so than those who would rape children or would abuse their wives?

And what innumerable harms homosexuality entails, I am quite curious.

Quote from: Icefire2314 on December 08, 2015, 08:05:23 pm

I still don't entirely agree even with that. If we are all made equal in God's eyes and sex is in fact pleasurable, I don't think God would deny one boon of life to a specific group He created, assuming that we are in fact created homosexual and it's not a choice (which I do believe).

How many situations can you think of where hedonism ends well?
Taking pleasure in an act is a basic bitch argument for morality if you pardon the bluntness, it's easy to take pleasure in doing evil things. Without such thinking we wouldn't have maximum edgy

I don't entirely agree. Heterosexual intercourse is also pleasurable even if done exactly as prescribed by the Church, and it is the same pleasure you get from doing it in the ways the Church is against. If it is the pleasure is the sin, then God created us wherein one sins during sex.

But it is not the pleasure which is the sin in this case, it is the act that it is done between a homosexual couple than a heterosexual couple, which brings me back to my original argument. If homosexuality is innate then it can't be a sin. If it is the act of same-sex intercourse, I don't believe God could consider that sin for the reasons I explained previously.

Rick Santorum, Senator Ted Cruz, Dr Ben Carson, and Louisiana Governor Bobby Jindal have agreed to support a constitutional amendment voiding gay marriages, including existing ones.

Why am I posting this here?  Because of the group which wrote the pledge in the first place:
http://www.pinknews.co.uk/2015/08/24/anti-gay-marriage-group-nom-funded-by-catholic-donors-it-fought-to-keep-secret/

Just...  When I say I'm *afraid of Christianity*, I'm not joking okay?  And it's not an unreasonable phobia.  As a gay atheist I have:
* Been called a noncitizen by the President of the United States (Bush Jr)
* Have to recite a pledge of allegiance which (thanks to relatively recent neocons) puts the country underneath a single God
* Have to use currency which does the same
* Am even less likely to be elected to office than a muslim
* Reached the age of 28 before my right to marry was recognized by the federal government
* Said right has been and is, as above, constantly attacked by the "moral majority".  Real candidates for president are being applauded for promising to strip my basic right to marriage.
* ...  It's actually illegal for gay people to have sex in 17 states, marriage or not:

Quote

Fourteen states' statutes purport to ban all forms of sodomy, some including oral intercourse, regardless of the participants' genders: Alabama, Florida, Georgia, Idaho, Louisiana, Maryland, Massachusetts, Michigan, Minnesota, Mississippi, North Carolina, South Carolina, and Utah. Four states specifically target their statutes at same-sex relations only: Oklahoma, Kansas[16][17] Kentucky, and Texas.

Do you see that?  Four states, even now, *only* ban the acts between same sex couples.
This is the law of the country I live in.  I *am* oppressed, by Christians, every day.  I don't "hate Christians" I want BASIC CIVIL LIBERTIES.  I want them to let me live my life in peace!  And I'm sure most Christians here are happy to let me do that, but please stop crying "persecution" or "hate" when people want to question the Bible, or suggest that American Christianity is dangerous.  Being disagreed with is not persecution.

Went by the post office yesterday, it was sporting a giant Christmas tree and a santa sleigh.  The US Post Office.
I mean, it's not the Ten Commandments, but this still makes me *uncomfortable* because I am *scared* of what it represents.

Sorta as an aside, something I'm conflicted about...  My loud and proud atheist brother said he doesn't care about Christmas decorations, as long as there's no manger scene.  Basically arguing that Christmas is practically secular nowadays.  This made me conflicted.  On the one hand, yeah, Christmas was formed from pagan rituals and is still highly pagan.  And I enjoy Halloween, which is technically the same situation (formerly pagan, turned Christian, became secular).

But I don't want Christmas to turn secular?  I just don't want to celebrate it.  It's got Christ right there in the name, for one thing.  I'd rather the federal government be secular, and keep dialing back the legislated Christian morality it forces on me.

I am a gay Christian, so I think I can address this. Hopefully.

It's a very touchy subject. But homophobia is not exclusive to Christianity. I know homophobic religious people. I know homophobic atheists (and I would have to say, actually, I've met more homophobic atheists, or at least non-practicing Christians than homophobic Christians). Similarly I know religious people who don't give a damn either way, and the same goes for atheists or non-Christians.
I'm only 17, and still closeted, I know my experiences are small. I know things are different outside the veil I live under.

The problem technically originates from religion (depending on denomination and interpretation of Scriptures), but I wholeheartedly believe that people who claim that "God hates gays" or "I hate gays because God hates gays" (or other such things, I'm sure you get my point) are either:
A) True sheeple, lacking any intellect and just regurgitating what they are fed without any form of reason, logic or pondering up what they read (because unfortunately the Catholic church has an anti-gay marriage stance and people take this to extremes). Times aren't medieval, we are literate and we read the Bible. Many Christian denominations promote individual interpretation of the Scripture.
B) Non-practicing "Christians" who are homophobic and claim they are Christians because it is easier to say "I hate gays because my religion" than "I hate gays because I'm intolerant".
C) I think the characters off duck dynasty deserve their own little subcategory
(ie: Westboro Baptist Church. They claim to be followers of Christ but are more hateful than almost any other group that I can think of)

And I believe that because if Jesus truly told us to love one another unconditionally and God loves us unconditionally then there is no reason for hate crimes and intolerance.

Now I'm sure people may ask how I can be both Christian and gay. Well, simply put, if there is a God in the form I believe, He knows truly my own heart. I know I didn't choose to be gay. Therefore, if I didn't choose to be gay, and I simply am, then I was at the moment of my conception. I was made this way, by Him. And if He made me this way I cannot be such an abomination that may be sometimes purported.

Dia dhuit cairde!

Using Discord I've created an online chatroom for people to talk in Irish and practice. You can ask questions in English (though please use parenthesis for English like this) if you need to. Please join if you have any interest! Currently I have 12 people altogether including myself but it's always quiet. If you do join and nobody is talking, hang around for a bit to see if anyone joins! I'm usually on all the time though If there is no active conversation, feel free to start one!

Discord doesn't require membership, you can just join immediately by picking a username. So just check it out! It'd make me happy, please :3

https://discord.gg/0f3o7jsfdGSGhySm

(That link should work, if it doesn't let me know. Discord has a strange way of linking)

If you have a high level of skill especially I'd appreciate you joining if you don't mind helping others out to learn this beautiful language. Go raibh maith agat agus bíodh lá maith agat!

I nominate this for bug of the year.

No, make it a feature