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Messages - Kot

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256
Yeah, that's the idea. It should be noted that psychic powers seem to be less dependent on genetics though, so it seems it's less a case of there not being psyker material around. I mean I guess Emperor's children are psykers in a weird, unique way, but that's Sensei update arms race you lazy bum for you. There's a theory it's caused by Emperor sucking out psychic potential for quite a few generations forward, which is what I'm getting at.

257
The outer defensive lines were more comparable to German WW1 trenches to my understanding, fortified trenches with bunkers and artillery support, as opposed to a Maginot style field of heavy fortifications, armoured gun emplacements, mobility restricting obstacles and such. Gorgons could drive right up to the first trench lines after all, which would have been pretty difficult if there were proper tank traps and similar there.
Yes, but all those are covering each other. The outwards ones are being covered by artillery and giant fucking guns from fortress, so while technically it's easier to walk into the outer line, since it's not like, giant walls, but you are constantly shelled by the guns on giant walls and artillery in more trenches, and generally there's so many fucking fortifications.

Things is there's plenty of things the DK did wrong on Vraks, some tactical and some just issues with poor equipment choices for the assault.
Sure, they do fuck up, like everyone does. You can't wage war and expect your plan to be 100% flawless, but in general they were amazing at it.

Holding tanks in reserve until breaches were already made in the outer trenches rather than bringing armour that could help suppress trenches with machine gun fire or explosives or burn them out with flamers is a pretty poor idea, a few close quarters armed Leman Russ tanks or Hellhounds coming up in the cover of the Gorgons could have incinerated whole trenches in minutes rather than forcing the DK to clear them by hand and face the heavy numbers of defenders and close quarters heavy units the DK lacked but the traitor's had in spades.
Tanks are expensive. Men are not. Also, Gorgon assaults are covered by heavy artillery shelling. Few tanks don't really make that much difference, and it only endangers them.

Poor communications equipment is another issue, they didn't even issue their elite grenadier units anything better than a squad vox unit, which was why they were so reluctant to try more complex assault plans, if they'd issued some of their elites with microbeads, even just the sergeants, they could have coordinated nighttime assaults easily for all the trench assaults rather than considering it too difficult to try.
Someone is gonna have to go there and pluck those microbeads out of their ears. Presumably microbeads, being much lower power than vox units, have been interferenced by weather and the sheer amount of ground and explosions flying in the air.

They also sent tons of Kriegsmen fresh out of training, they'd never seen any planets other than Krieg and had no real combat experience and were just thrown into a battle on alien terrain in incredibly hostile conditions they had never encountered.
Uh. So, like, Imperial Guard does regularly?

Sending a force from multiple worlds that were all experienced in actual combat would probably have been a better use of men than selecting all of them from one world if that force requires new recruits to bulk it out. Vraks was not a good place to get your first live fighting experience.
Experienced Kriegers are kind of a weird combination of words. Also, that is assuming you have the comfort of doing that, which Imperium presumably doesn't.

Air support does not seem to have been present at Vraks from what I can find,
Marauder bombers played a quite big role in the siege, and there were tons of other stuff.

and the original army list for the DK didn't have access to any fliers (though at the time they were all classed as skimmers anyway, but it was still a major distinction between them and normal IG.)
Lore =/= tabletop. And again, what Imperial Guard regiments mainly use is stuff like Valkyries, while what was used was mainly heavy air support like Marauder Bombers, Thunderbolts and such. I am not aware if stuff like that was in IG lists back then, but in terms of fluff those were certainly used at Vraks.

Granted this may have been due to the insane weather storms on Vraks making heavy use of fliers difficult, but the traitors still managed to use the odd thing like Arvus Lighters to ferry troops around, so I think it's more just that Kriegers don't care for air support due to their military traditions.
Kriegers, again, have absolutely no say in getting air support or not. If there weren't any fliers (and there were), blame Imperial Navy.

Most of this stuff can be blamed on Commander Zuehlke, his command staff and the Munitorum more than the field commanders, but I still feel the reason Vraks took so long and became such a mess was because the DK weren't actually the best choice for the assault, they aren't great with using mechanised and armoured forces, lack speed and are defined by squandering resources in futile assaults due to their penitence complex (an actual part of their regimental summary, they're Chenkov: The Faction.) In a war where time and available manpower isn't a factor those are fine, but when you have a set timeline to finish things in and only so many military assets to spare you need a regiment with a bit more speed and coordination to minimise losses relative to progress in taking the objective. Cadian/Steel Legion style mechanised regiments supported by rapid armoured assaults could have negated the advantages of the outer static defences in much the same way trench warfare was largely supplanted by tank warfare in the real world.
Mechanized regiments would be destroyed by enemy cannons. That stuff killed ships, the only reasonable option was a siege. Siege, where you hammer the enemy with as much artillery as you can, and what is left there is land that is horribly hard to traverse with vehicles. I mean, sure, if they deployed like 100 Imperator titans on Vraks, then that would be over pretty fast, but can't have everything, can we?

So if Big E was the result of practically every shaman psyker merging, and we can assume that the average shaman is 'modestly' to 'Black Ship hunts you down when because they feel the backlash of your birth' powerful, how did E get even strong enough to imprison the Void Dragon when he did?  He was just a sexy, sexy balt then with a modest warband, right?
Okay, so, humanity is psychic. There's bunch of shamans, maybe like few hundred or thousand, and people are being sometimes eaten by enslavers and shit, so shamans decide to bunch up and do a ritual to focus humanity power in one being. Boom. There are no psykers for next what, 35000 years? Emperor, as a being, is filthy powerful, because his existence is essentially humanity trading becoming something akin to Eldar in terms of psykers to just focusing all that shit in one person. Presumably only now, with Emperor losing a bit of grip, humanity starts getting more and more psykers, which are then usually delivered to him anyway.

It'd be hard to frame "the collective reincarnation of all of humanity's psychic mutants fought a magic metal dragon wizard in 1300s Libya and hauled it off to Mars without anybody noticing" any other way, to be fair.
Quite a few sources imply legend of Saint George is people explaining Emperor fighting Void Dragon. I mean, think about it, in various versions there's stuff about statues possessed by Satan, then there's the Dragon, and all that shit. GW toys with history quite a bit, like placing Emperor's birth in Anatolia, and historically, "soon" after Hittite Empire appears. The royal symbol of Hittites was a double-headed eagle.

258
The Alpha Legion didn't show up until 7 years into the war and the other Chaos Space Marines and pirates a further 2 years after that. In that time the DK hadn't even reached the actual walls, their campaign was well behind schedule at the time.
"Actual walls". Vraks was circled by bunch (three, IIRC) of defensive lines, each of them making French ashamed of Maginot. By the time Chaos dropped they got through two (the second being on the outskirts of the place already) of those, and really, each next line (without Chaotic help) would be easier, since there was only less and less enemy artillery and defenses piled up the further you went. Sure, it may have took longer than Munitorium expected, but those kinds of things happen.

Gorgons struggle with close fire support, their standard weapons are four mortars and two twin-linked heavy stubbers. Their gimmick is being slow and weak but filled with goons. I would rather have 30 men in 3 chimeras that are faster and better armed by default than 40 or 50 men in a gorgon that struggles to outpace an elderly lady. The Korps don't use chimeras much, and didn't have any mechanised regiments at Vraks, just infantry, siege, tank and artillery ones, which are all light on chimeras.
You can have 12 dudes in one Chimera or 50 in one Gorgon. Presumably Gorgon is cheaper than equivalent amount of carrying capability in Chimeras. Also, I wasn't even aware, but Gorgon is amphibious too. LCVPs anyone?

Plenty of guard have airborne forces that belong to the regiment, Valkyries and Vendettas are the main ones, but the DK just don't factor them into their tactical considerations. It's something of a common rivalry in the novels, lots of regiments seem to dislike aircraft and drop-troopers. I'm not even sure the DK have airborne regiments or mechanised regiments come to think of it, not all planets form all kinds of forces.
In most cases even Valkyries are considered inherently Navy thing. Sure, they work together with them, but complaining that Imperial Guard regiment didn't bring any fliers with them is like complaining why don't they have Space Marines in their ranks. Not the same branch, not their responsibility, not their thing. And again, there was a significant presence of Imperial Navy fliers at Vraks.

The commander was only not punished due to rank, his subordinates were mostly assigned to penal legions.
Sounds like a promotion for a Korpsman.

Quote
As the artillery fire hammered down it caused the utter collapse of the 158th regiment's attack in sector 50-45. The Commissars amongst the retreating assault squads demanded that the men stand firm and push on, summarily executing the first men to take any steps backwards. In return, several Commissars were shot out of hand by their own side as the shredded assault companies scurried back to the safety of their own trenches.

Kriegsmen shot their Commissars for telling them not to run when they broke under artillery fire on the first day of the assault.
Now that's an interesting quote, I have found it and I think that's somewhat weird. The rest of all sources goes on how Kriegers fighting to death, and generally the usual stuff, and then there's this one case when they did the opposite, and that's not even during the actually hard period, way before "green hell", daemons, chemical warfare, Chaos Space Marines and the rest of that. Curious.

259
Other Games / Re: Crusader Kings 2 is released.
« on: November 15, 2018, 08:13:38 pm »
That's probably one of those conqueror (or whatever it was called) special characters.

260
They would've lost at Vraks if space marines (4 different chapters of them) hadn't intervened several times to take important locations and defeat important enemies before leaving to do stuff they considered more important*, not to mention the Inquisition and 22 titans by the end of the war. Indeed, prior to the arrival of the titans and some new regiments as part of a reinforcement wave with a new commander in charge the war was lost, the DK already deployed were cut off, being systematically destroyed and generally just knackered.
Half lies, half misdirection. While in fact DK did have a major problem in the middle of the war, it was due to the arrival of very big CSM forces with Chaos Titans of their own. The forces deployed from orbit and have went around the Krieg trenches. Before the traitors received four CSM Warbands and a Traitor Legio of Titans of reinforcements, Krieg was winning the war. Shortly after a relief force arrived with more Korpsmen and regained the initiative. This is like saying "well the enemy suddenly got overwhelming numbers so Krieg of course lost the war if not for, well, more Krieg apparently.

Honestly I would probably have taken the Armageddon Steel Legion over the Death Korps for Vraks, though I do prefer the DK aesthetic their tactics are less than stellar even for their supposed speciality given the gear available. The main weakness the DK assaults had was improper use of armour and slow movement speed, as well as an aversion to actual thinking. The Steel Legion uses Chimeras which are fast and heavily armed with good frontal armour and an enclosed compartment, while the DK prefer Gorgon Transports, which are slower and open topped even if more heavily armoured and able to carry more men at a time. Really an open topped transport is a weird thing in general, especially when you still need a door to deploy from it.
But... Korps also use Chimeras? Heck, their Chimeras are generally upgraded to be better armoured and armed. Sure, they have more reliance on Gorgons, since they are the actually best thing to use in case of trench warfare. I'm not sure about the open-toppness of it, but I hardly see a problem with it. Sure, an artillery shell will kill the dudes inside, but they'd have to be unlucky, and at the same time most would go through armor on top too, and it's not like the doctrine doesn't call for artillery shelling of enemy positions anyway - in which case the enemy artillery is presumably suppressed and unable to shoot back.

A rapid massed mechanised assault of Chimeras and Hellhounds could easily burn out the outer defensive trench lines and better protects the infantry from artillery fire than the gorgon, as well as better able to follow and support disembarked infantry in most terrain. Chimera's are also amphibious vehicles, well suited to function in the muddy terrain of Vraks. I'd probably want some Elysian Drop Troops regiments in a perfect world, but I think Vraks was ill suited to most fliers due to the electrical storms, the DK didn't bring fliers any in any case.
Gorgons also have guns, and they carry a whole lot more guardsmen than Chimeras. The problem here is that while Chimera is really commonplace and cheap, Korpsmen are still vastly cheaper. For the same amount of vehicles you can deliver a higher number of soldiers into enemy trenches, and more soldiers means more flashlight fire to drown out the enemy. DK didin't bring fliers because they are an Imperial Guard regiment. Most Imperial Guard regiments do not own their own fliers (apart from Valkyries and the like, which are more like helicopters in terms of how they're used). Vraks in fact had bunch of aerial combat done by Imperial Navy air force though.

Of course this is a battle where Death Korps regiments tried to retreat. Some even shot their own Commissars for trying to stop the retreat, so I'm not sure any guard force could do it without problems, but I do think some could have made far better progress at it while also being more resistant to the traitor's main arsenal of artillery and massed small arms fire.
Krieg was ordered to retreat and they were shooting Commissars telling them to. Hell, even if they wanted to, they wouldn't be able to, considering the encirclement. A lot of them were still rescued by the relief force consisting of, surprisingly, even more Korpsmen and a bunch of Titans, though traitors had their own.

Granted the DK are somewhat better suited to resist chemical warfare than the Steel Legion, but considering that the chemical weapon that was stockpiled on Vraks literally melted DK soldiers into skeletons through their jackets and respirators I'm not sure being better at it matters much. Liquified is liquified after all.
Not all chemical (and biological, and whatnot) warfare is made equal. The stocks of the chemicals that killed them despite their protection were somewhat limited, and there was a lot more of various nasty stuff that they went through without problem (although it should be noted that for some reason one of Inquisitors that arrived later wanted to use chemical weaponry on Nurgle forces, which was met with reaction along the lines of "haha it tickles").

*Weird thing about Vraks, it's this super important location, holds a vast amount of weapons, distributes them and serves as a collection point other planets send psykers to so they can be held until a Black Ship arrives, and yet Space Marines generally only got involved when the DK had hit a major blockade, like fortified gates they couldn't take after weeks/months or when a chaos marine warband was actually doing stuff. Similarly despite this planet being so important the Sector Command officers kept considering writing it off and pulling out the forces because they were taking years to make any progress. Hell, it took 17 years to capture one city.
Space Marines only got involved when:
1) Alpha Legion was around and Dark Angels apparently had some heretical business to do, so they did, and then did nothing of significance. Sure, they destroyed the star port to deny Vraks reinforcements, but... that happened before the reinforcements actually arrived, and when they did they didn't use any star-port, they just dropped straight to the ground because drop pods are a thing, who could have guessed.
2) Red Scorpions popped up because well, I dunno, maybe their book told them to.
3) Grey Knights and Red Hunters popped up because the war was ending, so they wanted to capture the people responsible after the majority of the work was done by the Krieg, and of course steal the glory. They did have to fight a Bloodthrister, but hey, they only popped up at the very end.
The gate was bombed by bombers (duh) from Imperial Navy. The planet was important, but they didn't consider writing it off, but rather decided to focus more on it to wrap the thing up, and it's not like the reason they were there (unbelievably huge stocks of weapons and ammunition) weren't getting depleted by the war. It took them so long to capture "one city", because the "one city" was in Wh40k scale. It was huge, was heavily fortified, and had stocks of equipment enough for half the Imperial Guard. It also took so long because nobody actually expected Chaos to bring that many forces into the fray, the commander who was winning the war up to that point and got his ass kicked was recalled, but even then he wasn't punished for it because nobody actually expected this form of resistance.

261
Amusingly, the Siege of Vraks wound up being mostly Nurgle vs Death Korps towards the end as the environment got blasted to the point few others could fight properly. Was a better environment for Nurgle than the DK to be frank.
Possibly. But at this point Death Korps are the Imperial group that Vraks was least shitty for, baring Space Marines, which you can't really have in high enough numbers.

Miles of trenches, sodden mud, caustic chemical smog and unexploded ordnance, where mortal men had to trudge through knee deep clinging muck, would die if their skin was exposed to the air and where foul miasmas reduced visibility such that the undead could lurch out of the mist onto unsuspecting soldiers. It's a testament to the DK that they could keep fighting at all, but it was very much a hellish situation.
I am pretty sure they got spiritual orgasms by just looking out the window. Sounds like heaven for a Korpsman.

Now Vraks was a horrible fight even by DK standards to begin with, a fanatical population in a heavily fortified position sitting on a munitions stockpile intended to provide supplies for a sector and led by a fallen Imperial Cardinal. Just getting to the enemy took several head on infantry and assault transport waves, and then when they finally made a breach they got counter-attacked by drugged up Ogryn Berzerkers, and that's not a place you want to be with small arms and bayonets.
Gee, I wonder why Imperial Guard doesn't use tanks and artillery and other stuff that isn't dudes with small arms and bayonets. Oh wait.

When you added in the Chaos Marines that showed up later to the mix things went south fast. The Khorne forces were basically just being the frenzied butchers you expect, a wall of steel and axes that killed men in droves, but the Death Guard warband present made things properly nasty when they dug up the chemical weapons stockpiled on the planet and started spreading the zombie plague among both sides, and then things got bad enough Daemons started to pop out. The human responsible for the whole mess even ascended to Daemonhood after joining the Nurgle forces.
And yet Imperium won. You're looking at all that shit and yet Korps seen it through.

262
Death Korps. Tremendous amounts of deadly machinery operated by men whose entire life is dedicated to waging war in hellish landscapes, lines of tanks and artillery covered by trenches, spewing munitions downrange, a furious storm of holy fire purging everything it encounters. Slow and methodical destruction of enemies of Imperium, ensuing that there won't be more than bloodied mud left once they're finished. There can be no demonically warped terrain if there is no terrain to speak of anymore.

263
Other Games / Re: Crusader Kings 2 is released.
« on: November 12, 2018, 11:10:53 am »
General Data Protection Regulation.

264
Nah, T'au probably on the genocide list as well. If one of them became Khornate, that means if hard pressed enough, they can probably be exploited by Chaos (if there were no easier targets like Humans). Nids do apparently have some form of connection, since they are able to do some Warp stuff, though it's open question if they actually do posses anything that Warp could feed off. Individuals are most certainly too animalistic, but since they essentially work as brain when together (thus, Hive Mind), there might be more to it, but even then, that's unknown both in lore and out of it. And yeah that's about one solution that's openly known. There might be more Emperor bullshit though, like accessing, maintaining and expanding the Webway, which will not remove chaotic Chaos all-together but might help contain it.

265
You just basically said that if you happen to pile everything else in with chaos, then everything is chaos.
And if they're called chaos gods of law, wouldn't that make the classic gods "chaos gods of chaos"?
As I said, since modern Chaos Gods represent both the chaotic and lawful (Khorne being, well, Khorne, but technically also stuff like honor), then there is no real distinction between one and another, since both are pieces of the same thing, thus, that would all be Chaos.

But yeah, the warp is currently in a fucked up chaotic state. But it has been for so long that we may as well call chaos its natural state at this point. The warp is permanently fucked, and that reflects the real world being permanently fucked. So if everything's fucked and there's no indication that that's going to stop anytime soon, we may as well call fuckedness the neutral state of the world. The world has reached its equilibrium, and that just so happens to be chaotic by the standards of ancient beings who lived billions of years ago.
I wouldn't call Warp permanently fucked (neither I would call real world so), and while it is the state right now, has been for long and will probably be for even longer, that is not it's natural state. Just because the seesaw rusted and is now stuck in one position doesn't mean it's the neutral one. We also have the comfort of being able to talk about this from outside, knowing at least majority of variables, thus "standards of ancient beings" aren't what we use to judge how the Warp is, but rather the fact that original Warp didn't have beings that embody tentacle rape, and that original Warp lacked ordered places such as Webway.

266
Chaos and "Order" (apparently the term was Law, I was a bit off, but that's what I remember) were specific opposed forces in old WHFB, and I think they are in AoS. The term was still Chaos Gods of Law, funnily enough, but there was an idea of "Good" counters to the Chaos Gods. That idea has kind of died-off over the years, and while I am pretty sure it was never outright denied, like many other things, and there are still some small references there and there, it's not really a thing anymore. As far as WH40K approach, presumably Emperor, in his "God" state, when and if he achieves that, would represent a Chaos Gods of Law. If it were anything like old WHFB though, there wouldn't be one specific Chaos God of Order, but a whole array, in which case Emperor would just be the newest addition. While old Eldar gods could be shoe-horned in that role, as at least some of them are kind of a "better" version of Chaos Gods, I don't think 40k was ever created with the idea of Chaos Gods of Law being a thing, since it turned to just Chaos Gods having more of a positive side, at least in theory.

Of course Chaos isn't the neutral and natural state of Galaxy. Before the whole War in Heaven and Enslavers and all other random Warp beings, Warp was stable and while I don't think it was particularly ordered, it was there. When Old Ones came by, they started introducing Order, in form of, for example, Webway, which is like a stable-ish Warp. War in Heaven destabilized it towards Chaos, and ultimately it resulted in a snowball effect. This is why I would never consider True Chaos anything close to neutrality, and (seriously, the term is fucking retarded and people get wrong ideas) the same applies to Chaos Gods of Law, or, just generally, Order. However since presumed deities that represent Law and Order, instead of Chaos, still take their power from The Immaterium, which the common name (or rather, denonym?) for is Chaos (thus, Chaos Gods of Law, not because they're chaotic, but because they come from the same place as Chaos), then an amalgamation of that would mean that it'd be Chaos (or rather Immaterium) Undivided in the form where it also takes into account Lawful deities. So, surely, that would actually put the ending result as True Neutral, as they should balance each other out.

However, since the Chaos Gods of Law are not anything that'd be canonical right now (though their existence or perhaps, future existence isn't ruled out), that means there are only chaotic Chaos deities, and Emperor isn't actually a Chaos God of Law, just an interchangeable version of some other Chaos Gods and Eldar Gods are just some weird facets of Chaos Gods, and Gork and Morks are, well, I don't know, whatever, Orky versions of some weird Khorne/Tzzentchian gay pairing, it ends up as only Chaos, which is certainly not neutral in that state, resulting in just a Chaos Warband that just believes in Chaos in an extremely Undivided fashion where they just consider every deity some version of Chaotic deities, adding to each other, even taking into account stupid shit like Void Dragon which clearly is not an actual God in the same sense Chaos Gods are, to which title Emperor comes the closest out of all not-Chaos God beings right now.

This is fucking medieval scholasticism at it's most absurd. How many Warp Storms can Emperor fit on a head of a needle?

267
Well, that'd be the case if we went by the old WHFB fluff of having, well, Chaos Gods of Order, thus actually meaning there's an offset to Chaos, which would mean a mix would be just True Neutral, but considering that was long ago and even less canonical when it comes to WH40k than WHFB, people presume Emperor being an actual God in the same sense as Chaos Gods, would mean he'd be a Chaos God too, not some being associated with Order.
If we though considered stuff like Eldar Gods and the rest also working off the same rules somehow, and return to the original idea of background struggle between Chaos and Order (please don't even start anything about AoS), then it'd be True Neutral. As it stands right now though, with that idea long in the grave or in case of AoS, long in being turned into retardation, the Order side of spectrum doesn't exactly exist, and while the beings such as Emperor would fit in there more, I don't think there's an actual difference as it is, so he'd just be a Chaos God too, resulting in Chaos Undivided, not True Neutral Undivided.

268
Chaos truly Undivided.

269
Dude ran into some trouble apparently, now makes his own series and also did original MGS intro recently, which made him more popular than anything related to Warhammer. It fills me with sorrow.

270
It's more like... old sea voyages except taken to an extreme. Shit goes wrong a lot, people die, occasional flooding (of daemons), shits breaking down and whatnot, but the ship is a big thing and it still goes on. The loss of whole thing is pretty catastrophic, but dying on an otherwise successful trip is not unlikely. So the truth is that it's not even dangerous because of the chance of complete and utter fuckup, but more the dangers of stuff like your toilet now bites people's asses off, a plague broke off in the lower levels and thousands of the "crew" inhabitants of the ship die, there's food shortage and riots and then sometimes certain parts of the ship have really weird shit happening when the Gellar Field flickers.

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