Bay 12 Games Forum

Also were jets a big deal?  I got the impression they came too late, though come to think of it, that should mean they were more important in the Pacific theater island-hopping.

Japanese had very little resources so they didin't really field them in meaningful numbers and Americans didin't really want to field them because they would have to think of a way to cram them on CVs.

Awww, the pool changed.
I will now never know if crucifying children is good, good or good.

I was wrong. And I hope that there are few Poles like him, else we need to dig another line of trenches on the Western border, just in case.

Hey, weren't you supposed to not discuss this?
Also, funny you mention that, there was quite a lot of voices after the Russians "freed" the Crimea and such that Poland should go and "liberate" (since before the whole Ukrainian nationalism thing happened it was almost 100% Polish, and we consider losing it one of worst loss of Poland during creation of new borders) Lwów, but it was kinda stopped because west wouldn't be exactly happy (we did something like that at least once and we were said to be helping Nazis) and if there is someone we hold a bigger grudge against, it is Russia (not Germany though, all in all, they don't usually try to bullshit us that Holocaust never happened EDIT: USUALLY IS THE KEY WORD).

Not sure if there were any in the US. Unless you count the time (19th century mostly) where we often slaughtered Native Americans and treated them like third class citizens, or sometimes didn't even consider them citizens.

Yeah, you guys are pretty clean (or clear up the mistakes well, but that would be conspiracy theories), though I can think of few that weren't exactly glorious.
Like Executive Order 9066 and stuff.
ITT: We show off the shit other countries did.

chancellors can basically keep going forever

There was this one chancellor who also kept going forever, though in the end it was too much for him and he commited suicide.

french people like to say that chopin was french

Eh, and people wonder why Polish dislike pretty much every country that exist or existed (though really, stealing Chopin is a minor thing when it comes to French).

77. We use dates for designations, don't you remember?

*Reads the wall of text, considers answering* Nope. Because you want to fight. I'll let you think that you won. I expressed my opinion for bystanders and it should be enough.  Sapienti sat. Discussing with a guy who plain insulted my nation without any good reason is counter-productive by default.

You consider that expressing your opinion publicly is something you should do, but when I do it, you consider that I want to fight with you. You brought it into public and I consider my right to respond to it. Take it as you want, I have more important things (like "art" or actually going to sleep) to do.

PTW
Also /tg/ > all other servers.

Thanks to this whole TRAITOR thing I don't have art for you.
Sadly.

Kot You said that you hate me. It is even worse than accusing.

You know that the closest thing I could compare you to is a Neo-Nazi? No offense though.

stuff

I never said that AK didin't kill Ukrainians. They did (notice that children and women survived, unlike those during Ukrainian attacks, the "crucified children" thing I was reffering to was an act of nailing a dead child to a door to resemble an White Eagle, the Polish national symbol), but those were rare cases, as the whole "Guerilla war" thing never really took place. Only the intensive fighting in the Chełm region lasting from March/April 1944 until June/July 1944 had the features of a guerilla war. On the other territories where the Polish-Ukrainian conflict went on during the German occupation the Polish underground was too weak to defend Poles against Ukrainian attacks, let alone to engage in regular warfare against pro-Bandera partisan units. They also fought Germans and Russians as partizans too, but for some reason Germans didin't really attack UPA. Ukrainians started it, not them. Also, considering that it was exaggerated by Soviet propaganda when a good bunch of independent research was made seems to be... well, nationalism. And, ironically, the only reason that Ukrainians didin't murder more Poles was simply because there was no Poles left, Soviets or Germans took them already. From the initial (at the time of purges) ~200,000 population half got slaughtered and other half had to escape.

more stuff

Sure, there are very little proof (but there is, as there is evidence that Dymytro Klyachkivski, head-commander of UPA-North ordered the genocides on his area, possibly not by himself) that it was a coordinated genocide, but on the other hand it's hard to belive that 100,000 people could be killed without any organization (consider that every village could have 200-500 people at most) and it's accepted that OUN-B was anxious to cover up the traces of the massacres and to “democratize” the organization through a new political platform — the Ukrainian Supreme Liberation Council. Most probably the aim of the Council was to avoid embarrassment in the eyes of the West, which as early as 1943 was recognized as a potential ally in the struggle against the USSR for the establishment of an independent Ukrainian state on all “ethnically Ukrainian” territories.

courts

Mykola Lebed, mentioned Dymytro Klyachkivski, The rest is covered up (do you really think that they couldn't just destroy the orders? I mean, that seems like a good idea when you're a "guerilla"), but there are some clues around, like the posters and leaflets that were convicing Ukrainians to kill Poles. While localized concentrations of those could be explained by local printing, having the same ones all around the area doesn't really fit.

The funniest part that he has nothing to do with UPA because he was in German concentration time when it was formed (not counting some conspiracy theories). Before the war he was and a leader of nationalist terrorist organization that became a basis of future guerilla. It wasn't like modern kind of terrorism that kills random people. His organization targeted politicians. Is it good? Nope. But I am not sure that Ukrainans had many more ways to protect their rights in midwar Poland.

He initially collaborated with Nazis to create an army (also later on, when Soviets came), he wanted to have an armed uprising as early as late 1939 (didin't work out, though). Also, he was in concentration camp when UPA was formed, but that didin't stop him from attending a meeting of OUN in Kraków earlier in the year, some parts of which I quote further below.

Peasants who took weapons and waged a hopeless war to defend their homes are heroes in my mind and I don't take insults directed to them lightly. Some of them were maniacs and war criminals but good luck finding any army without that kind of people.

In May 1941 at a meeting in Kraków the leadership of Bandera's OUN faction adopted the program "Struggle and action of OUN during the war" (Ukrainian: "Боротьба й діяльність ОУН під час війни") which outlined the plans for activities at the onset of the Nazi invasion of the Soviet Union and the western territories of the Ukrainian SSR. Section G of that document –"Directives for organizing the life of the state during the first days" (Ukrainian: "Вказівки на перші дні організації державного життя") outline activity of the Bandera followers during summer 1944. In the subsection of "Minority Policy" the OUN-B ordered: "Moskali, Poles, and Jews that are hostile to us must be exterminated in this struggle, especially those who would resist our regime: deport them to their own lands, importantly: destroy their intelligentsia that may be in the positions of power ... Jews must be isolated, removed from governmental positions in order to prevent sabotage, those who are deemed necessary may only work with an overseer... Jewish assimilation is not possible."

Later in June Yaroslav Stetsko sent to Bandera a report in which he indicated - "We are creating a militia which would help to remove the Jews and protect the population." Leaflets spread in the name of Bandera in the same year called for the "destruction" of ""Moscow", Poles, Hungarians and Jewry. In 1941-1942 while Bandera was cooperating with the Germans, OUN members did take part in anti-Jewish actions. German police at 1941 reported that "fanatic" Bandera followers, organised in small groups were "extraordinarily active" against Jews and communists.

(Why I am even using wikipedia, it's clearly a Soviet propaganda device!)

Peasants who took weapons and waged a hopeless war to defend their homes are heroes in my mind and I don't take insults directed to them lightly. Some of them were maniacs and war criminals but good luck finding any army without that kind of people.

That sounds really like what those neo-nazis guys say. After all, every army has bad people, right? It was the SS who commited the crimes, right? Wehrmacht had no idea! (Don't take me wrong, Germans defended their land, followed orders, and some of them were pretty cool guys too, but that doesn't make them any better. As always though, generalization is bad, as there were Germans who fought Nazis and there were also Ukrainians who helped Poles during Volhynia).

But if you prefer to live in a simple world of black-white history, historical myths, one sided opinions and decades old propaganda, I can't help it.

A crow told raven that it's black. Or was it the other way around?
Eh.