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Messages - Frumple

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10441
General Discussion / Re: Ameripol\{RK, mainiac}
« on: July 26, 2016, 05:19:00 pm »
It was in florida, mainiac. No one remembers that. Especially the people involved.

10442
General Discussion / Re: Ameripol\{RK, mainiac}
« on: July 26, 2016, 11:00:37 am »
Your reasoning is funny. We're just to trust that "Well, some people might be watching, maybe even people that aren't supposed to." and "It's too much effort." to prevent election fraud. And for some reason those facts mean that extra people watching specifically for fraud would be worse for some reason.
... how the hell did you come to any of those conclusions from what I typed?

Just... maybe reread a little more carefully. I said none of that. I'm not even sure how you could get that reasoning out of what you quoted...

Pretty much the entirety of that quoted bit was just noting (some of) how rigging is detected when there's not dedicated observers. There was nothing about it being 100% sufficient (there was, in fact, the exact opposite noted), nor about things somehow being worse when third party observers exist (How the zog did you even get that to begin with? The quoted bit specifically said that third party observers make it harder to get away with corruption.).

I would say in supplement to that that I do believe the state of things renders most kinds of fraud to be not enough of an issue to actually change much, if anything, in regards to vote results, but I'd be plenty happy if we actually had dedicated observer groups, too. Something more sensible than voice votes would be nice, too, among various other things.

10443
General Discussion / Re: Ameripol\{RK, mainiac}
« on: July 26, 2016, 10:32:14 am »
Man, you must have a lot of confidence that trump will take a massive dump on the constitution and our legal system if he gets elected...

10444
General Discussion / Re: Ameripol\{RK, mainiac}
« on: July 26, 2016, 10:06:46 am »
... it'd be nice to know what part you were disagreeing with, but a'ight.

10445
General Discussion / Re: Ameripol\{RK, mainiac}
« on: July 26, 2016, 09:58:57 am »
How will you detect rigging if you don't have observers?
Normally? It's not like these things are particularly closed door, most of the time. They're generally, y'know. Televised live, from multiple angles and often illicitly, too, these days. Actual ground vote stuff is generally handled by the local election whatsit folks, too, rather than specifically chosen members of the party.

There usually isn't specific election monitors (for the primaries, at least... think they get a bit more involved in the general, but there's a fair amount of opposition to them in the US, so...), but there is still a lot of folks involved, many of which don't really have much reason to rig things and even less to keep mum if they notice it happening. Makes it relatively difficult to get away with stuff. Not impossible, but about as good as you'll get without actually having specific organizations dedicated to keeping an eye on that thing (more, since it's not like there's no interaction at all) involved. And even that doesn't exactly remove the possibility of some sort of corruption. Just adds another layer of people that'd need to be subverted. Which is kinda' desirable, because the more effort it is the less likely someone's going to invest that effort into it, but still. It's not like the folks involved with this actually particularly need to rig the votes to get the outcomes the party's pretty happy with.

10446
General Discussion / Re: Ameripol\{RK, mainiac}
« on: July 26, 2016, 09:19:09 am »
And that's a problem in my eyes. It's okay to rig the elections as hard as you want as long as the final decsion between two candidates forced down our throats is fair.
Well, it'd be a problem if the elections were actually being rigged, sure. Most of the accusations I've seen of that the last couple of cycles have shown every sign of being pretty much entirely bullshit. Election doesn't exactly have to be rigged for someone to lose, oddly enough.

10447
General Discussion / Re: Ameripol\{RK, mainiac}
« on: July 26, 2016, 09:06:27 am »
Where are the election monitors?
... do the parties even have those for their primaries? Any of them, really, not just the big two. Certainly can't recall hearing of any for the last... well, as long as I've been alive and aware. Occasionally ones during actual votes or at particular polling areas or something, but not at conventions or whathaveyou. It'd be a bit weird, anyway... these things are an internal organizational issue, not some aspect of the actual government.

10448
General Discussion / Re: Ameripol\{RK, mainiac}
« on: July 26, 2016, 07:14:01 am »
Also bugnuts, for what it's worth.

Why in the name of zeus would fox be editing out booing during the DNC, anyway?

10449
General Discussion / Re: Ameripol\{RK, mainiac}
« on: July 26, 2016, 06:01:30 am »
You know, maybe Sanders made the right decision by not conceding the primary until the very end. He managed to push forward nearly all of his platform stuff, including stuff that was outright declared by some people as "delusional", like 15$ minimum wage, alongside with breaking up big banks and free public university education.

It sure seems that he didn't lose any political influence by not quitting early. In fact, he may have had much more influence than he would have had otherwise. This is certainly a historical decision on his part, one that may be followed by many more candidates in the future.
... just about every appearance is that he lost a lot of political influence by not quitting earlier, as well as not handling things during the primary a (fair) bit more adroitly. Those things you mentioned as pushing forward were things clinton was already intending to push towards, just not quite as rapidly (because, y'know, then it'd be easier to actually get some shit done in a single term) on some fronts. 13-and-a-bit minimum wage, a massive expansion of free uni education for everyone below a certain (pretty damn high) income, etc., etc., etc. Was all shit that was already on the table. In exchange for "concessions" that were basically already happening, he's hurt the chances of a liberal president (and by extension SCOTUS position), lost pretty much any chance of influencing any major cabinet etc. positions, and mostly pissed off many of the people that's basically been trying to do the same goddamn thing he was.

He's maybe expanded his personal voting base to a degree (but not as much as he could have, because as I've noted this shit has alienated some of his previous support base) and managed to convince people to try to do some stuff that's probably goddamn stupid on a practical level, and in exchange did a lot of bridge burning with people that not just could have been allies towards the things he's try to get, but were (and still are, but you can pretty much guarantee it's not going to be so in tandem with sanders very much at this point), and generally turned a fair chunk of people that already weren't largely against his rhetoric style and whatnot.

Basically any gains you're seeing are significantly smaller than they probably could have been, and some have quite possibly turned things that could have been victories outright for his platform into pyhrric ones at best. A number of the decisions he's made, particularly near the end of the primary, have been frankly fucking stupid, particularly on any level that isn't kinda' distasteful (i.e. not egotism or personal gain or whatev').

And seriously, I say all this as someone that came into this primary pretty damn supportive of the guy, and was kinda' trying to stay positive on the man for most of the primary. I've really wanted to support someone as verbally (if not functionally) left-wing as he is. But dude done fucked up. My opinion of him as a political operator is now pretty much nil, and the impression of character he was giving before has been eroded to hell.

10450
General Discussion / Re: Ameripol\{RK, mainiac}
« on: July 25, 2016, 09:12:35 pm »
I'd... kinda' expect mainiac to be more annoyed by the fact that sanders et al aren't making similarly shrewd decisions than anything related to nobility, really...

It certainly bugs me more than any hypothetical, or even actual, good character. Though that it lacks that, too, does make things worse. One of the things worse than malice (or whatever) is incompetent malice :-\

10451
General Discussion / Re: Ameripol\{RK, mainiac}
« on: July 25, 2016, 08:57:34 pm »
Saving it for the next round :V

Alternately he didn't actually want to. Have you seen what happens to US presidents? It may be 4-8 years (or less), but it shaves a hell of a lot more off their lifespan than that, by all appearances.

10452
General Discussion / Re: Ameripol\{RK, mainiac}
« on: July 25, 2016, 08:54:34 pm »
Meanwhile HRC's main flaw is that she isn't an elite liberal, just a liberal.

Uh, she IS an elite liberal, given her standing and seniority (and by that, I don't mean age), but it's certainly not her main flaw.
Yeah sorry, I meant "extreme".  I was using the obscure Liberal Crime Squad term to be silly, which was misleading.
... policy wise she kinda' is, though, particularly by US standards. Certainly roughly as much as bernie is, or at worst barely trailing. Could say that's not actually saying that much, considering bernie's actual positions, but *shrugs*

Clinton's opinion issues rarely have bugger all to do with how liberal she or what she supports is, far as I've been able to tell. It has occasionally happened throughout the last couple decades (I haven't exactly met too many folks that haven't fluctuated a fair bit over a twenty year period, m'self, though), but not particularly often. Especially relative to her generation she's been managing to be pretty consistently fairly hard left on most issues.

10453
Or rather, it's fairly easy but usually not particularly pleasing to read, for a human. Odd logical patterns are easy. Ones that don't lead the reader to howl murderous invective about idiot balls or whatev' is the problem :V

10454
General Discussion / Re: Ameripol\{RK, mainiac}
« on: July 25, 2016, 07:51:42 pm »
I'm sure that Hillary would be largely unaffected by this, but that seems like it might kill Sanders. Maybe wait until 2020, he'll probably be dead  by then.
Berlary Sandton/Kane 2020!

10455
General Discussion / Re: Ameripol\{RK, mainiac}
« on: July 25, 2016, 07:45:03 pm »
I'm not exactly sure how we'd do proportional representation for presidential candidates, but I would support surgically removing 43.1% of Hillary Clinton's body and grafting the equivalent amount of Bernie Sanders onto her.
Maybe time share? They split the weeks or somethin', or just the overall term.

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