Bay 12 Games Forum

The IRC-esq reflex posting has definitely been a thing grown stronger in the last year or two, from what I recall. Or at least more irritating on a personal level, so as to notice it more.

I... don't really pay that much attention, though. I just post when I post, read when I read, and hang around mostly because I've been hanging around. And I say that last bit in the best of ways. I think.

But to stop yourself, I think Streaker J recommended gouging out your eyes. And I suppose if that doesn't work you could perforate your eardrums or sever your spinal cord so as to not get any sense information by which to have a basis for envy.

Matthew did, anyway.* And it was more of a general thing -- better to maim yourself into an insentient blob of flesh than risk hell, was the basic concept. No suicide, though!

I'm not sure how it would work out if you, like, somehow managed to remove your stomach and tongue and whatnot to escape gluttony. Would self-mutilation induced starvation count as suicide? If you strangle yourself to escape a lust/gluttonous feeling for air, would that be suicide or following the text...? And what happens if you bleed out after chopping off your hand, anyway? Passage didn't cover that part, iirc.

And I don't think the commandment did, cryx. There's other condemnations of the lustful outside the 10 Cs, though.

*E: Well, whoever the blazes actually wrote matthew.

It doesn't actually work like that, no. Most of the time, anyway.

In any case, the argument generally isn't necessarily that things are predetermined, but rather that the existence of a being like YWHW necessitates that things be so. Free will and omniscience can't really coexist.

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Okay, canonical example: The year is 1942, you're Polish, and a Gestapo officer comes to your house, inquiring if you've seen your neihbor recently. You have - he's right below you, under the floor boards, and currently soiling himself from fear. How do you respond?

Yes I have seen my neighbor


there is never a reason to lie in any cases

Well... congratulations. You've just gotten your neighbor killed and/or tortured. Quite possibly yourself, as well.

Very kantian, though. Critter advocated a similar position, yeah. Even if the murderer asks if their victim is within, so that they may kill them, you are to tell the murderer truthfully that they are, if they are.

Would you advocate as much stringency on obeying and not stealing? Obey even if the command is sinful action, do not steal even if it means starvation?

... that's actually an interesting general question, now that I think about it. Would it be considered suicide to avoid sinful action if sinful action was the only means you have for survival? Is it killing yourself to starve instead of steal? If the choice is between false witness or death, which is acceptable? Wasn't there one of the major-ish biblical figures that chose lying over torture or somethin'?

as for the ¨we have to lie in some cases¨ I strongly disagree with that.
There is never a good reason to lie

Many, many cases in history disagree with that. Pretty much any case where we've had ethnic cleansing going on and people protecting them, have been incredibly good reasons to lie, and that's... just the start of a very long list. Deception and dishonesty are fundamental parts of human interaction, and often for the better. As I've noted elsewhere, most of us wear clothes, and affect behaviors intended to deceive -- to present a message to others that reflects a picture of ourselves that is not a true one. We smile when we are sad, we walk with confidence when insecure, we give pleasantries to others even when the doing so is falsity. All... very normal, and often done with the intent of bettering those around us -- making their day brighter, even when, strictly speaking, your "Good day" or whathaveyou is a lie. We hide many truths of ourselves, and deceive, misdirect, and so on.

The lies we tell children in schools -- about math, about history, about science -- are manifold, and often done for genuinely good reason; some things really can't be understood by most at points in their development, and simplification is an appropriate path in that case. Tell a small lie, now, so that the larger truth is able to be learned, later. Even in churches, from what I've seen of sunday schools and whatnot, the practice is quite strong.

It's hard for me to see any conclusion otherwise. We have many reasons to lie. Many of them good. Almost every aspect of human civilization has screamed that from the rooftops in the same moment they condemn dishonesty on the streets. In the face of starvation, pain, death, and all sorts of other horrors this hostile existence forces upon us, the lies that bind together societies are not sins, but virtues.

... which isn't to say that all lying is good, of course. But the control of truth, including its fabrication, is a tool. It is not, itself, something with necessary moral character. There are good lies, and bad lies, just as there are truths spoken with good intention and truths spoken foul.

The more important part isn't what hell is (we all know that it's just not a good place)

I'd... actually kinda' disagree? To it being the most important part, or at least to it being something that can be disregarded for other considerations.

To me, at least, how YWHW punishes people -- especially those who by most measures have done no wrong (good non-believers, ferex) -- is of significant import to whether union with or worship of that being is desirable or morally acceptable. S'like, on a personal level, if the traditional conceptualizations of hell are accurate (eternal torture for the vast majority of mankind), on that basis alone I would have to consider YWHW a thing of extreme evil -- not something I could conscionably worship, y'know? Because there is nothing but horrific cruelty involved in such a punishment, and no creature which would mandate it could be anything but monstrous. And to support a monstrous thing willingly is to be monstrous yourself. Not something I aspire to

Hah, I'm having a lot of fun watching the fallout as well. I suppose it helps that my core ship--despite having only read maybe the first couple arcs of the series before dropping it; thanks, fanfiction writers!--was canonized, because god damn is it good to see elegant wallflower badass route as canon in anything ever.

I'unno, as appreciative as I am of the true hyuuga bloodline, Reload kinda' sold me on the ambiguously transgender Sasuke pairing. Most narusasu stuff just makes me want to bang the author's head against the wall, but that was pretty well done.

E: Of course, Reload's Sasuke was also about ten thousand times more compelling of a character than canon (admittedly not a difficult proposition, but still), but eh.

In Daniel 4:31-33, God forces Nebuchadnezzar to go out and live like a wild animal and graze like a cow for 7 years.

I would like to half-heartedly reiterate my previous statement regarding divine frat members. Even if it didn't make sense on the net, it makes entirely too much sense on many of the specifics.