Bay 12 Games Forum

Mm? Re: Exorcism: Yeah, it's definitely a stateside thing, though I couldn't say which denominations practice it. It's fairly marginal, but... happens. Definitely happens. The practice... ends up killing a few people every year or so. Usually kids. Has been doing so for as long as I've been aware of it, so... decade and change, now. Not exactly a fan, personally, as one might imagine.

As usual, there's a wikipedia page.

Is there any scriptural support that says god chooses the BEST reality to happen, I mean he did give us free will and we all see how that turned out

I'm actually mildly sure there's zero scriptural support whatsoever for the existence of alternate realities, choosing the best path among many, and whatnot. At least little to nothing explicit.* Honestly, from the scriptural perspective, it's arguable how much of a damn YWHW even gives in regards to making reality anything even remotely approaching good. Critter's noted as having a plan, but whether we'll be particularly happy about it is an entirely different discussion. Much of the biblical depictions of heaven are pretty exclusivist, iirc, and the lead up to the end of times and whatnot pretty damned unpleasant.

Basically, the best reality for YWHW may not be (probably isn't) the best reality for mankind, y'ken?

*Most of that kind of theological work arose from (much) later theological consideration, iirc. Best of all possible worlds stuff is... enlightenment era thinking, I think? Maybe a bit (few centuries, whatever) before? Forget how soon that sort of spiel started showing up.

I must concede that no, being a "good person" and doing good deeds will not justify you in the eyes of God.

Which mostly leads back into the "YWHW is a bastard" thing. Honestly, when I think of Streaker J, I prefer to think of the dude just going, "Naw, y'all alright. Strip down and join me, brethren." Strictly speaking against the text of the religion, sure, but man, anything that renders the divine a colossal jackass is something I'd rather just ignore, y'know? Chalk it up to screwed up transcription and man's hand mangling the divine message and see the holy as good.

Otherwise I'm morally obligated to consider the thing an enemy of all mankind and as much as I intend to spend the potential afterlife sticking whatever the eternal equivalent of a shiv is into the ribs of the divine, I'd much rather not have to

@Cryx: Jack Chick. Which is good, because generally when you're turning to that particular nutjob and seeing affirmation of your beliefs, it's probably time to reconsider your life choices.

Yeaaahh... I think the point being made is you would have experienced that regardless to who, or what, you were praying to and... quite possibly if you weren't praying at all. People all over the world have experienced the same sort of things, both in and not in the presence of religious (or otherwise) prayer. One of those correlation =/= causation things. Hell, as a minor personal example, simple meditation (which, functionally, religious prayer is just a methodology thereof) did a tremendous amount to help me psychologically when I was younger, and to this day I often use a simple (and, frankly, mangled) buddhist mantra (that I can no longer even recall what is supposed to mean) to help focus and work through rough spots. It's often not the meaning that's important, but the method.

Reason it's actually worrying to some people is because, beyond the conceptual or theoretical aspects of it, a strong emphasis on prayer... gets people killed. Regularly. Because folks will trust prayer more than actual action... turn to faith healing instead of a doctor, and whatnot. And for every one that does that and sees results... many, many more don't. I'd be the first person to express approval for meditative practices -- including prayer -- but also the among first to warn against attributing more to the practice than is appropriate, yeah.

I guess the half-point is that you're very welcome to express your belief in the practice, just... expect people to also express their concerns, y'know?

As the aside, I've always been fond of the conceptualization of prayer as a thing expressed through action, instead of words -- that you express your love for and belief in the divine through good works instead of a bowed head and mumbled benedictions. From the christian perspective, one could say that when one walks with Christ, every step is a benediction to the glory of the lord, every hand extended in mercy a hymnal to the righteous path. To speak of christ is to of very little... weight, y'know? Comparatively. Kind words are a lesser thing than a kind shoulder to lean on. Occasionally all there is to be done is offer words, but... in that case, instead of offering words to the sky, offer an arm to those near -- better the world around you when you cannot better the world afar. Through that is message of rightfulness made manifest...

... I haven't actually seen that sort of thing very often on the ground, though

... you're posting that a second time, ~a week later?

Oh gods. Giant doom parrot. That. That's amazing.

various writers have claimed that three or four days of fasting and prayer are spiritually illuminating.

I can personally attest that a couple days of going without food can make other contributive events (such as fever, lack of sleep, etc.) considerably more likely to result in hallucination, occasionally vivid. Given that consistent prayer, especially of the mantra type, is very much such a contributive event as well, well...

Fasting has a lengthy and fairly storied position in the ascetic arts, really. It's well known for its contribution to meditation, spirituality, tripping balls like goddamn (even without the addition of actual explicit hallucinogens or psychoactives), and so on. Often part of ritual cleansing, to allow impurities to be processed and extruded (i.e. for the kidneys and whatnot to finish up any backlog they may have been working on).

And yeah, spiritually illuminating is a good word for three or four days of fasting, little-to-no sleep, and constant or near constant prayer. You will be out of your goddamn mind by that point, heh. You're probably going to experience vivid hallucination, strong perceptual shifts, obviously you're going to experience fairly incredible psychological effects... it's a hell of a trip. Don't even have to go that long to experience lesser symptoms, but a full go like that? Eesh. There's a reason people saw visions when they went out in the desert for a few days, and preeeeetty likely it wasn't actually god. Human physiological and psychological reaction to that sort of scenario is pretty well known.