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Messages - Frumple

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27181
General Discussion / Re: Things that made you sad today thread.
« on: December 29, 2011, 12:10:16 pm »
Hey, look on the bright side Vec, such as it is. Could be worse! You've managed 3.5 more meaningful connections than I have. Living in an area where being open with other people is entirely too likely to result in (possibly grievous) physical injury has unfortunate side effects, I guess.

S'good thing it's left me mostly incapable of feeling regret. A little bit of nostalgia for what could have been, but nothing heavier than that. Largely excised the capability for anger, too, which I appreciate. Would have been nice to have the luxury of it, but that could have ended up with me dead or maimed. *vague shrug*

Not sure if it's appropriate, but I'm quite fond of this old English saying, whose author I've forgotten:
"For every evil under the sun,
there is a cure, or there is none.
If there be one, go and find it.
If there be none, never mind it."

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That's from Gunnm (Read: Battle Angel Alita): The Last Order. Alita's sequel series, which is still in production, from what I understand. Everything basically goes bugfuck crazy, as near as I can tell, but it's pretty bloody awesome. That image doesn't have anything to do with the plot or actual events in the series, but it's a good representation of how delightfully bloody insane things get. CrabShrimp cyborg is playing a motorcycle.

Basically, those guys getting together and just rocking out for a bit is something that would fit their characters.

27183
General Discussion / Re: Things that made you sad today thread.
« on: December 29, 2011, 02:37:11 am »
... throw in some steampunk and I'd totally read the hell out of that.

27184
Ghost in The Shell was better
I'd accept 'Of equal merit,' though.

Incidentally, seeing that again brightened my morning.

27185
Battle Angel Alita has you all beat.
*Cybrofist*

On the flip side, I'm now remember that... thing, in the more recent series. I think it was the competitor from... Jupiter? Giant phallus doom-robot thing. I really need to go find the pages that thing was introduced again, because I remember them being hilarious. E: Anomaly! That thing! Ahahahaha! Libido Cannon! "The Libido that defies logic and which humankind find shameful to display!"

Yeah, that thing cracked me up. Also Flan man.

27186
General Discussion / Re: Things that made you sad today thread.
« on: December 28, 2011, 11:41:39 pm »
The point of clarity here is that the saying was for when you go looking for someone, not about yourself. Ferex, if you're looking for someone smart and sane, you're going to have to flip on whether they're not physically attractive to you or already in a (closed) relationship. That's what you're going to find, more likely than not, is the intent of the saying. It's one of those attributed-to-Murphy things, yeah.

S'one of those kind-of-downer things about setting high standards for yourself, or a kind-of-realism-injection that people aren't perfect, or even mostly so. A reemphasis that you're going to have to take what you can get and deal with the flaws, somehow. Unless you get tremendously lucky (you probably won't, and almost definitely won't if you think you will. That's how Murphy works.).

27187
You would need to cite some good psychology papers to convince me that earning money for the fun of it is somehow psychologically unhealthy. You may not approve of it for whatever reason, but I would not suppose that it is damaging or neurotic somehow.
Not necessarily damaging to the person that's doing it (Though I could go dig up the info on the studies that show that money over a certain point has effectively zero influence on personal happiness, and there are definite cases where it becomes outright insanity, but that tends to be on an individual, case by case basis, not endemic of the whole group.), but in a more general sense. If there's neurosis in that, it's neurosis of underdevelopment, I'd think; not thinking about or caring about the actual impact of what you're doing. The actions of a child instead of an adult.

Were we talking about people that earn? or people that do villianous things to gain money? Fair trade is not a zero-sum game, so I see no harm in earning money. Now, if we are talking about ruthless competition with no regard for the safety of others, we are in agreement.
Definitely the latter more than the former, but I would say that there is (or, at least, very strongly can be) harm in simply 'earning money,' because the implications involved there go beyond the dollar sign in the bank. When you're making money, you're collecting the resources it represents as much as the currency, and moving and (especially) keeping those resources has implications far beyond the immediate act. That's why I first mentioned 'shortsighted' or 'naive' as possibly descriptors.

Unless that rational, sane reason for getting more is because you enjoy getting more.
To clarify my point (and be happy to disagree!), I don't see that as a rational reason, because money is an empty thing. If you're getting money strictly to get more money (point of emphasis, the acquisition of money/wealth for particular or general ends doesn't trouble me; I understand and emphasis with that very easily), you're either collecting what amounts to air (which is irrational) or hoarding resources for the sake of hoarding (which is insane, either due to paranoia or hoarding behavior).

If you're doing it for the thrill of doing it, there's avenues for that sort of psych trigger that doesn't involve such a risk of negatively impacting others; in that case, it strikes me as irrational because you could get the same fulfillment while risking considerably less damage, especially to others. It may also be insane, because you're either unable or unwilling to consider or emphasize with the results of your action.

So it seems I shall have to disagree with you on this.
Which is fair! This is more a personal trouble than moral or social condemnation, though it often tries to slip into the latter. I seek understanding, yeah.

Of course, I understand that I am speculating about the motives of a large group of people, but I am just trying to assert that I think there is no reason to think them all mad.
Yeah, I'm not exactly saying they're mad, in any directly assertive way. I'm saying I can see no sane reason for their behavior, which isn't the same thing :P

Why does "having their heads" have any intrinsic value either? Why is killing people for you to forget those wrongs any better? What sort of message is that? It's not as if anything you do is actually going to bring them back.
No, it's not for anything that would fulfill me personally, to any large degree, outside the very irrational (and recognized as irrational, unreasonable, and immoral) desire for strict revenge toward those who genuinely harm me and mine. The question for that particular blurb was how I'd, personally, react on a personal/emotional level to the event. As stated, money would mean shit to me in that situation; only very physical repercussions for the responsible would provide any immediate emotional comfort -- soothing the rage, if not the grief.

Beyond that, it's just a very large 'will not take this shit' drawn in the sand, mixed with ensuring that those who did the wrong will not commit it again. It's not fair, it's not better, it's not truly just, but it would ensure that those responsible would be facing something truly meaningful for screwing up. There's definitely ryhme and reason to ascending degrees of punishment; when lives are lost, great punishment should fall on those responsible, because they have failed in their responsibility to the highest degree possible.

Being more rational about it, I would say that the just thing would be to surrender the lives of those responsible to the party wronged. If wronged want the party responsible to die, then they die. If they want the courts to handle it, then the courts will handle it. If they want those people as slaves for the rest of their lives, then so mote it be. If the wronged want nothing done, forgiveness granted, and the responsible let free with no repercussions, then that is what happens. Nothing can genuinely recompense the wronged when their family is dead, there is no truly just response, so let them decide what is enough. There would need be limitations, of course, but it would be closer to something meaningful to me, I think.

27188
General Discussion / Re: Things that made you sad today thread.
« on: December 28, 2011, 10:26:12 pm »
[...]decent, considerate, cute men[...]
There's an old saying, that apparently applies to homosexual as well as heterosexual relationships: "Smart, pretty, sane, single. Pick two and flip a coin."

Which, uh... probably isn't very reassuring. Best of luck with the current go at it! I do mean that sincerely, just to make sure the intent is clear.

If it makes you feel any better, I'd totally hang (or at least attempt to, gods only know if my hilariously fucked up social capabilities would be able to manage) if I was in the area. Have roomed with one bisexual fellow and one of my high school friends came out of the closet after leaving their hometown, so I'm apparently no more jittery around homosexual folks than I am anyone else :P Low interaction number being more due to the area I'm in and lack of face-to-face social interaction in general than anything else, heh.

Mostly just a 'they're out there, just keep looking' thing, I guess. *cheer up waves*

27189
I am not sure that the money could have prevented this either, as it was the pilot’s error that sent the plane crashing into the houses, not a lack of funding.
Ah... read the article more carefully. If what it's stating is accurate, it was due to mechanical failure, probably brought about by people cutting corners (to save money). If it had been strictly pilot error, there wouldn't have been 13 people 'disciplined' for the crash. It said series of bad decisions, but it doesn't say anything about them belonging to the pilot. Bit more detail would probably be enlightening, but I doubt that'd be available to the public.

Frumple, I think that you are assuming incorrectly that people make money simply for the utility of it. There are people that enjoy earning money, so, while they have money in excess of what they truly need to sustain themselves, I would suppose that they just like the feeling of earning money. I am, of course, speculating, but it does not seem completely incomprehensible to me.
Well, I did include a caveat of 'sane', but 'healthy' would have worked, too, I think. Making money for the sake of making money is... misguided is the kindest way I could put it, or perhaps naive. Shortsighted would probably work, too. Money itself has absolutely no intrinsic value; it only has meaning, purpose, in what it represents and what it can be used to do. Making money just to earn money is collecting potentia, or perhaps power, with no intention or plan for its use. I can grant there's comprehensibility in there, but it's the understanding of a kleptomaniac or paranoiac. Gathering for the sake of gathering, rather for actual reason or goal. That's neither healthy, nor rational, nor safe; we've all seen all the ways that sort of behavior leads to disaster.

One could say it's for the challenge of matching wits with others, to make profit and come out ahead, but there's much healthier (or at least safer, in an injury-to-others sense) ways of indulging in that kind of drive (Sports, games, for example.), ways that doesn't involve such potential repercussions. I can comprehend the joy of competition, I just can't comprehend the joy of competition where the pieces being played with often involve other peoples lives. I've not yet been able to find a rational reason to gather money just for the sake of gathering money; once you've got a certain amount, there's simply no (rational, sane) justification for getting more unless you intend to do something with it, something beyond the self.

I can understand making money over a certain amount when you intend reasonable ends for it. Health, safety, home. Support for family, friends, community, descendants. Comfort and entertainment, sure, with the caveat of efficient expenditure. But fulfilling all of those still hits a solid line beyond which more resources (money) isn't necessary or even particularly useful for doing the job. It's the point beyond that, and the fervor that so many seek that point... it doesn't click to me. There seems to be no thought to it; the action of a lemming, not a man -- perhaps not even an animal, but something even less capable of cunning. It makes no sense, brings no happiness, and fulfills no purpose. *vague shrug* I don't get it.

Everything I've said so far tries and fails only to go to compensation and not to punishment and policy. Fact of the matter is, if they don't have these large awards, then the people in charge don't care about the rest of us. They don't care; they don't care; they don't care, period. We need more money for plane safety in this program but hey "what's the worst that could happen if we don't?" Right.... Certainly it couldn't cost us Millions right...? Right? The only thing the people in charge care about, the only way to make them accountable is large damages. It makes them look bad even if they don't have to pay it themselves and they can't hide from them.
This says to me that maybe, just maybe, a little barbarism would be in order. 'Making them look bad' definitely seems to be not nearly damned enough. Failing that, take the money from the people that caused the crash; from the income of the people that allowed the program to fall so far, and everyone above them. Take from them everything but a living stipend and turn that money over to the people wronged. If nothing else, it would make the burden of responsibility much more direct.

The costs shouldn't be lower, the people RESPONSIBLE should be held responsible, damn it, and meaningfully, so that they don't fuck up in the first place.
Would fit my perception a bit better. As you say, the compensation is not truly just, but we could at least mete out the punishment so it lands on those responsible more fully.

Put yourself in their position, really fucking feel it as much as you can knowing that you'll never feel it and then think about it.
I would want the heads of the bastards that allowed it to happen. What damn use is money to me when my family is dead and the cause still walking? Money would be a damned insult when the cause of my loss stands unchastised. "We will not give you justice, so we will give you wealth, to forget the wrongs done to you"? What sort of message should I take that as?

That sort of wrong isn't one that money, any amount of money, can compensate for. As I said above, money has no intrinsic value, only potential. It's roughly equivalent to give the person you love and know better than anyone, even yourself, a gift card instead of something that would actually please them. "I do not know the right action to take, so I will put the burden of choice on you."

It could be used as punishment for those who committed the wrong; but again, what harm does it do to the perpetrators? What does it take from them to make the balance equal?

I can see the legal reasoning, and understand it well enough, I suppose. It just seems terribly empty to me. There is not justice there, nor punishment, only placation, and a poor example of it.

27190
Yeah, that's one of the weird things for me, personally, when you start talking money of that amount. I can feed, house, and cloth myself for the rest of my life on a single million, with enough left over to probably do the same thing for two or three of my family members. That 17.8 will (can, at least) do the same thing for the immediate survivors, their family, and their descendants for several generations, while having enough left over to do the same thing for probably a couple other full families.

I'm not, and wouldn't, say anything on that particular case. All I can really say is I don't see how anyone can really need, much less use -- without being horrendously inefficient or going into a large scale business -- more than a million dollars. It's one of the reasons that the wealthy culture in America (and I'm counting any and every one with more than about a 70k a year income in that) is almost completely incomprehensible to me. I've calculated it out; I can eat comfortably for multiple decades on the price of some of the lower end luxury cars. I can feed several other people, healthily, on the same budget, for only a slightly shorter amount of time. There's just... there's just a point, after which, more money just doesn't do anything meaningful, unless it's going to help other people. There's nothing you can really do at that point that can improve your life, on a personal level, more than you'd be perfectly capable of doing with less.

I guess the point to me would be giving the victims however much money, even astronomically more than they'll receive, wouldn't trouble me in the least if they turned the excess into good works. Similarly, giving them enough to live well for the rest of their life (1 mill a head, as vulgar a way of putting it as that is) and then spreading the rest among appropriate charities would sit best with me.

Perhaps as Fenrir notes, there's a point where 'more money' isn't going to have any meaningful impact. Ten million or twenty million or twenty billion, it's just... there's a cut off point, where it stops mattering to anyone sane. It's not that it's too much, or too little, it's just that it's... tangential, I guess. There's not a price you can put on life according to traditional morality, so trying to recompense lost life with money is... missing the point, I guess. Trying to feed someone with steel. Steel makes makes pretty useful building material, but it doesn't do much as food goes.

What would more do? Assuage the moral guilt of the people that caused the incident? Somehow set something right? I'm not saying it wouldn't be just have given more, I'm just saying I don't see/understand how it would impact the tragedy.

I would see justice, personally, as giving the lives of the ones responsible for the crash to the injured family. That's tangential to the question I present above, though.

27191
General Discussion / Re: Is Copyright Infringement Theft?
« on: December 28, 2011, 08:34:54 pm »
Kant? Categorial imperative?  o_O I'm confused.
The 'think about whether everyone does it' line is basically the categorical imperative (Act only if the action can be writ as universal law; i.e. only if everyone else does it, logical contradiction doesn't ensue. Thus lying is in-all-cases immoral, because if everyone lied communication would be impossible, or something along those lines.) put in plainer language. The first line was you saying the imperative applies :P

Both you and Luke was harping it, actually, now that I read a little more carefully.

It's actually not terribly surprising if you've never heard of the guy; for all that his influence is absolutely gigantic in a lot of western culture, most folks don't realize it until they've actually learned a bit about 'im, who he influenced, and the practical results of that. He's pretty huge in western moral theory, so Kantian ethics has probably seeped into most of the western world to one degree or another. Plenty of people run into the guy for the first time not realizing they've already internalized his system to some degree.

Fie Kant, fie I say! I really should go look up what fie actually means...

27192
General Discussion / Re: Is Copyright Infringement Theft?
« on: December 28, 2011, 07:03:21 pm »
First, I want to say that the claim "if everyone does it and it is harmful, you shan't" is as bad as "only me". Think about whether everyone does it.
*fist shake* Kant, you bastid whore, get your paws off of him!

Yes, yes, we realize you wanted to logically back up the golden rule (not Murphy's, the jew's), but your system has hellacious trouble actually dealing with reality! No, no, you shouldn't tell the murderous person the fellow they're after is in your house. Your house has no back door and no windows on the first floor besides the ones in your living room, the person you're hiding couldn't have left. Yes, yes, it's very logical and pretty, but it's not the whole story, however attractive your system is!

Back Kant, back I say!

... seriously though, the categorical imperative, which you're blatantly parroting (not saying that's a bad thing!), isn't exactly an unchallenged axiom :P So, yanno', don't just say it's gospel.

Just wanted to get that off my chest. Got total brolove for Kant, but his stuff gives me fits half the time it doesn't have me consensually molesting it in joy.

27193
General Discussion / Re: Karnewarrior Writes a Book
« on: December 28, 2011, 05:31:32 pm »
I'm terribly sorry, but the first time I read the synopsis/summary thing, I went, "Sailor Moon?" You can line most of them up with the various elements you propose (Light:Venus, Spirit:Moon, Dark:Saturn, etc.), and the inclusion of Time (Pluto) just kinda' hammered it. What you've described has probably been written as fanfiction before, heh...

Also chiming in with Bd; giving characters great power with large flaws is an incredibly difficult tightrope to walk and make decent*, especially with seven major characters. If you're a good enough writer, there's no reason you can't pull it off, but it won't be anything even remotely approaching easy.

The big thing is probably your audience, though. Considering you're talking the folks that consume massive amounts of incredibly shitty fanfiction and largely squee gleefully about it, you can probably get away with letting quality slide a bit.

I guess what I'd suggest is try to do those smaller books (say 100ish pages; about 60-100k words, iirc) and break those two books into five or six. Get the first part's manuscript done, then see if you can get a publisher to bite. This is caveatted by having absolutely zero familiarity with the actual publishing process, so...

Anyway, as unofficial survey goes, I personally wouldn't pick it up off the shelf unless someone recommended it highly, but folks like myself (Who primarily read non-commercial fiction or, if dipping into actually published stuff, stick to used book stores) aren't who you're after. It's the folks who bought Twilight you want.

... I have absolutely no ability to connect with their thought processes :P

*I've consumed massive amounts of fanfiction. I've seen this premise go south dozens, if not hundreds of times. Possibly thousands :-\ It can be good, just like almost all well-written stories, s'just... thats one of those proverbial recipes for (literary) disaster.

I ended up writing a lot more than I thought I would in response, yikes.

27194
Play With Your Buddies / Re: S.P.A.Z LP
« on: December 28, 2011, 04:04:35 pm »
Similarly, if you've got a turret mount too small to support doubling or tripling that you intend to use for a booster, it's entirely in your interest to slap a fixed mount on it, since those things don't need to move around. No downside except the (trivial) cost.

27195
Other Games / Re: Dungeons of Dredmor - Lutefisk for the Lutefisk God
« on: December 28, 2011, 01:15:28 pm »
Unfortunately, I have no access to a credit card. So yeah. D:

I would've bought it if I had a credit card, but my parent's credit cards are all drained, and they're a bit too frugal with stuff related to buying and money.
Prepaid viiissaaaa. Might have to cough up $10-20 for it (Dunno how low they go, honestly), but none of that finicky credit card nuisance involved. I got one for christmas, which promptly turned into a half dozen games :P

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