Bay 12 Games Forum

Alright, good to know.  Thanks again.

For tanning reactions that use GET_MATERIAL_FROM_REAGENT, it takes the physics values from the source skin's material and overrides destination material template values, right?

So, for example, this skin:

[MATERIAL_TEMPLATE:SKIN_WEAK_FURRY_TEMPLATE] -- (small furry animals with pelts)
[IMPACT_YIELD:6000] -- 0.6x leather
[IMPACT_FRACTURE:6000] -- 0.6x leather
[IMPACT_STRAIN_AT_YIELD:50000] -- 1x leather
... tanned into this fur:

[MATERIAL_TEMPLATE:FUR_TEMPLATE] -- (SKIN_WEAK_FURRY_TEMPLATE and SKIN_FURRY_TEMPLATE)
[IMPACT_YIELD:9000] -- 0.9x leather
[IMPACT_FRACTURE:10000] -- 0.9x leather
[IMPACT_STRAIN_AT_YIELD:50000]
...  would yield a, say, beaver fur that uses the FUR_TEMPLATE's material, but retains the 6k/6k/50k physics values from the beaver's weak skin, right?

Or do destination-material template values not get overwritten?

Trying to figure out if, for my expanded tanning mod, I need two separate non-generic material templates for fur (FUR_WEAK and FUR) or not.  I know in vanilla, skin and leather have the same characteristics, so this normally doesn't even come up.

Alright I see where you are going with the other leather types. Seems good to me now. Guess I was thinking in a bit of a skewed manner.

Hehe, no worries.  I get all turned around about 4 times a day on this stuff. You don't realize it until you get into it how many different ways there are to do something thing, and then you end up getting into the methodology for method B while you were actually building around doing method A.  Bleh!

I'm thinking the generic peasant recognizing different leather may be a bit of stretch. We may want to use an experience adventurer as the 'identifier'. [ . . . ] If you can fit it into a narrative like this that may help you figure out which leather/fur/skin/carapace the critter needs. Of course what dragonhide/scale and things are up to you.

That makes sense. A sort of common-sense check to keep it from getting too implausible.

I wanted to use wax or oil (you can use either one in the reaction) because it gives those things some use.

I've also been expanding the library/training systems I've seen (mainly based on Civilization Forge's) as part of the same overall project, so if one was to use that, there would definitely be a fairly significant use/need for wax (alchemical jar seals and candles for studying/manuscript-writing reactions).

I was actually working on an alternative armor mousing reinforced cloth and boiled leather and I ended up making brigandines. [ . . . ]Plus it allows me to branch out to books and allows the cloth reactions and leather to be useful in another way

Definitely sounds interesting. I think I'd like to see brigandine on the humans.

If you want a civ to have access to multiple types of armor for a body part (like the common problem: access to low boots but no high boots) add the FORCED token instead of COMMON and they will have access to both instead of one overwriting the other.

Hopefully I'll remember that tip when doing the civ permissions!


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Alright, I have Arkhometha's thermal and density values incorporated, along with my own research, so up next is coming up with decent material properties for all the skins, leathers, bones, and teeth.  If anyone's interested in taking a look, here is a rough documentation of it, and here is the material_template_default (minus skin, leather, chitin, scale, and bone entries, which are moved to a separate file).  I'll probably be ready in a week or two to put up a formal thread, but I want to be careful about Big Promises and all that.

And I'll definitely appreciate any guidance on physics values for armor and skin types anyone wants to throw out.


EDIT: Preview of the library system too here.  I should note explicitly and clearly that this WIP stuff probably does not attribute sufficiently -- I lean very heavily on Mephansteras's, Arkhometha's, and Deon's work.  And the library system is *quite* complicated...  And there are probably *huge* mistakes... and and and...  :p

I think you may be falling in the trap you trying to avoid, too many leather types.

Not necessarily.  After all, these would be 3 or 4 additional types of standard generic leather that account for a number of creatures that might otherwise either be (a) folded into plain generic or (b) each kept as a specifically-named sort of leather. They would do it without that list bloat, while still allowing for gradations of value among generic leathers.  Really, just a different name scheme for the the generic "rare" and "exotic" leather types seen in other mods.

Because, as someone noted, having all, value-2 leathers (elk, bobcat, black bear, etc.) folded into generic leather abandons that whole layer of distinction represented by MULTIPLY_VALUE:2, which is not really the goal so much as eliminating redundant overdistinction.

That's the idea behind it, anyway.

Of course, the SKIN_TOUGH/SKIN_DISTINCTIVE route -- in other words, just picking the most distinctive animals and making them GMFR leathers -- is definitely a pretty natural solution. I can see the mountain leather/deep leather/etc. route being meh-unappealing, but I don't see it proliferating where it should be cleaning up.  It still seems to retain both simplicity (3 additional types of leather instead of 20) and value-granularity (allowing value 2 and 3 generic leathers).  (Although I'm fuzzy-headed at the moment, so I might not be thinking it through...)

Having mountain leather, savanna ect seems like you fell back into the too specific for leather. Think of if a peasant saw this leather at a market... How would he know its mountain leather?

I see what you're saying.  That argument cuts quite a bit further than that, though, and favors even broader genericization, though, because the other side of that coin is... how would any but the most visually-distinctive leathers be distinguishable to your average peasant?  As you say, special visually-obvious ones (ostrich, alligator, crundle, etc.) would, but deer, bear, wolf, etc. probably wouldn't.  Even lion/tiger leather, since the fur would be removed and the leather made to look like other types (unless there's some visual distinction I'm unaware of).

So...  that criterion would essentially dismiss the bulk of the value 2-3 leathers as indistinguishable from generic, and eliminate their reason to be specifically-named at all. 

If I'm not mistaken, wouldn't creating differing ANIMAL, ANIMAL_VAL2, ANIMAL_VAL3 creatures with multipliers just do the same without visually-noticeable name change?  It's either populating the stocks list with additional leathers at the material template level, or secondarily at the creature variation level, but either way it's more leather types on the stocks list, if I am understanding correctly.

This method, though, I'm kind of wanting to avoid.  If at all possible, I want to create only one spoof [CREATURE:ANIMAL] on the creatures list because I really hate seeing false entries on dwarves' preferences -- just me, really, but that spoils it for me.  So I want to keep it stastically extremely unlikely that Urist is going to "like  for its   ".  (Or "like tough for its  .")

For dragons, snakes, pond grabbers, they possibly could so it could justify them having a special leather. To make it more valuable just add the material multiplier tag in their definition. That should be fine.

Right.  Ones that don't use the generic leather material reaction products would be fine, since the value multiplier would do everything we need done.  Again, if I'm understanding everything correctly.

As far as special fur you could have 3 tiers:
skin_fur_special_template: tier 1, animal-specific. This would be used by wolves, cheeta, rabbit ect.
skin_fur_tough_template: tier 2, animal-specific. Thick, matted or tough fur (could be named: 'pelts'). This would be used by trolls, cavern critters, or more monstrous (not-necessarily mundane) above ground creatures.
skin_fur_beast_template: tier 3, animal-specific. Another thing that could be named 'pelt' to differentiate it from normal furs. This I would apply to things like griffins, FBs, Titans, or other mythical furred creatures.

The third category seems a little messy, but the other two are close to what I have in mind.

With my research I found that studded leather actually didn't exist as far as armor. Mostly they would layer scales or pieces of metal and produces scalemail instead.

Huh.  I had no idea.  I always thought it seemed weird.  To hell with studded leather then!  But maybe brigandine...  anyway, that's another matter.

The way I produced boiled (or cured leather) is to take a blob of wax or oil at a kitchen, an unit of any leather and produce a unit of boiled leather. It doesn't have a name or other reaction it just produces a unit of leather with the BOILED_LEATHER_TEMPLATE. . . .

Cool!  Sounds interesting.  Yeah, I think perhaps just generic boiled leather might be the best way of it.

Incidentally, my quick searching fit your thing about studded leather inspired took me to some links that suggested that even boiled wax-leather might not have been how they did it, although it does make wax useful. One guy seems to suggest that it might have been, literally, just water-boiled leather (done at certain temperature), and that wax-boiled leather might have made it less resistant to shearing damage.  The water-boiled leather would be more resistant, but more brittle, requiring fairly frequent replacement of lamellae.

You could do that but for things like cavern critters with shells and such I would have that tough_carapace template. With the above materials it keeps the caverns dangerous to explore [ . . . ]

I like it better that way, myself.  I'm currently working on tweaking physical characteristic values for the different materials, so I'll have a much better idea of how to distribute them once I get that done.

(I'm currently going through Arkhometha's material properties research, implementing them, and also doing some of my own tweaks.  Which was on the drawing board, not mission creep, in this case.  :p)

The only other thing I could think of after all the skins and bones would be fangs. 3 versions normal, tough, and mythical for beasts and such should be sufficient.

That does make sense.  They should definitely be more competitive.

I could provide you with the boiled leather reactions and materials if you wish to use in your mod. Good luck!

Sure...  I'd like to see them.  Thanks again for the in-depth feedback!  I should have something to show pretty soon.


EDIT: Argh, I hate accidentally clicking save.

Some question about temperature points and what they practically mean.

HEATDAM_POINT: Temperature the material takes damage at.
What does damage mean in practical game terms? How long does it take to be destroyed?

Does the difference between the heat source temp and the material matter?  Will a 11000 degree heat source burn something with, say, HEATDAM_POINT of 10800 faster than, say, an 11200 degree heat source?

IGNITE_POINT: Temp at which material catches fire. What's the difference between heat damage and fire?  (I imagine it means the object becomes a heat source in itself up to a point, but does this do anything to to the object aside from normal heat damage that would occur with equivalent temperature above HEATDAM_POINT?)

MELTING_POINT: I am under the impression both melting and boiling are instantaneous, happening in a flash, not gradually like boiling water where it happens slowly as only certain parts actually reach boiling temperature. If the material has no STATE_NAME:LIQUID specified, does the material disappear/get destroyed?

BOILING_POINT: (Instantaneous?  per question above).  If all organic materials are set to have a boiling point of, say, 11800, and a being falls into magma, does this result in horrible FPS savaging for an annoying length of time as each and every material in his body turns to hundreds of tiles of gas?  What is the message when a being is boiled?

Apologies for those things that could fairly easily be solved by testing...  I'm not quite in a position to do so now, so big thanks in advance for any answers given!

Thanks, Black Legion.

Good catch -- yeah, it wouldn't make sense to have it have worse stats than, say, lambskin.  I hadn't thought the whole tier system out fully yet.  I caught it too shortly after, and I've since rationalized the system a bit better (I think), placing them, as you say, at tier 1 stats. It looks like this right now.

As you can see, it's sort of expanded/exploded from 3 skin types into 19 (!).  Yay simplification!  Should hopefully, though, simplify things at the level of in-game data, if not in the raws.  I think I'm going to do bone too. (Yay mission creep.)

Which animals to let fall into the generic type and which to keep as named, yeah, that's tough.  I know I get a sad when I think of losing "wolf fur/leather", but then, yeah, so much for reducing lists down drastically.  But given the massive traditionalist voting bloc turnout favoring named leathers, I think the balance will probably be fairly comfortable.  I think if just half the leather types are cut out of the list, I'll personally be happy, but I'm wanting to make it more generally useful.

I'm still kind of torn on how to handle the different valuations of genericized leathers -- SKIN_VAL2_TEMPLATE, SKIN_VAL3_TEMPLATE?  Different spoof animal-types (ANIMAL, ANIMAL_VAL2, ANIMAL_VAL3)?  Or just letting the more valuable ones be named (even though some of these have obnoxiously long or unappealing sounding names).

The list below does not have any entry for furred tier 2 skins, as I haven't implemented that.  That'll be the 20th skin.  I'm trying to be very careful about keeping away from "moar moar" type design, and keeping it pretty rational and tight.

Ahh, got it!  I'm starting to get the hang of this stuff, but so easy to get all mixed up.  Thanks for explaining that! 

I see what you're saying.  I'll turn it off by default for skins where there's a choice, and see how that handles on the road.

As for what you were saying about alternative fur/tanning reactions (as well as other products), does this look about right?

(from the material templates)

  -- Expanded Tanning Functionality
[MATERIAL_REACTION_PRODUCT:SUEDE_MAT:CREATURE_MAT:ANIMAL:SUEDE]
[MATERIAL_REACTION_PRODUCT:FUR_MAT:LOCAL_CREATURE_MAT:FUR]
-- Library Functionality
[MATERIAL_REACTION_PRODUCT:PARCHMENT_MAT:CREATURE_MAT:ANIMAL:PARCHMENT]
[MATERIAL_REACTION_PRODUCT:GLUE_HIDE_MAT:CREATURE_MAT:ANIMAL:GLUE]
Along with appropriate reactions at the tanner.

[REACTION:TAN_SUEDE] -- Tier 1 (Small or thin-skinned animals)
[NAME:tan suede]
[BUILDING:TANNER:NONE]
[REAGENT:A:1:NONE:NONE:NONE:NONE][USE_BODY_COMPONENT][UNROTTEN]
[HAS_MATERIAL_REACTION_PRODUCT:SUEDE_MAT]
[PRODUCT:100:1:SKIN_TANNED:NONE:CREATURE_MAT:ANIMAL:SUEDE]
[SKILL:TANNER]
[AUTOMATIC]

[REACTION:TAN_FUR] -- Tier 1-2 (All mundane mammals with significant fur pelts)
[NAME:tan fur] -- furs only usable for clothing and other soft items
[BUILDING:TANNER:NONE]
[REAGENT:A:1:NONE:NONE:NONE:NONE][USE_BODY_COMPONENT][UNROTTEN]
[HAS_MATERIAL_REACTION_PRODUCT:FUR_MAT]
[PRODUCT:100:1:SKIN_TANNED:NONE:LOCAL_CREATURE_MAT:FUR]
[SKILL:TANNER]
[AUTOMATIC]

[REACTION:TAN_LEATHER] -- Tier 2 (normal animal skins)
[NAME:tan leather]
[BUILDING:TANNER:NONE]
[REAGENT:A:1:NONE:NONE:NONE:NONE][USE_BODY_COMPONENT][UNROTTEN]
[HAS_MATERIAL_REACTION_PRODUCT:LEATHER_MAT]
[PRODUCT:100:1:SKIN_TANNED:NONE:CREATURE_MAT:ANIMAL:LEATHER]
[SKILL:TANNER]
[AUTOMATIC]

[REACTION:TAN_LEATHER_TOUGH] -- Tier 2+ (High-quality/value mundane animals)
[NAME:tan tough leather]
[BUILDING:TANNER:NONE]
[REAGENT:A:1:NONE:NONE:NONE:NONE][USE_BODY_COMPONENT][UNROTTEN]
[HAS_MATERIAL_REACTION_PRODUCT:LEATHER_MAT]
[PRODUCT:100:1:SKIN_TANNED:NONE:LOCAL_CREATURE_MAT:LEATHER_TOUGH]
[SKILL:TANNER]
[AUTOMATIC]
That all look about right?