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Messages - Halfling

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226
Hi there.

I've been occasionally skulking this thread, and I absolutely adore what you guys can come up with.

Because I'm too lazy to go through all those pages...
Do you have a set of raw files that contain JUST enough for the game not to crash due to lack of some crucial items (for some reason), but without anything truly new?

I just want to fiddle around with DF from scratch myself.
KTHXBAI

That would be the first pack, "Starting point: minimal world" good man. This one: http://dffd.wimbli.com/file.php?id=7776  Took many crashes to figure out what's needed. (It does include extra items)

You get halflings, some minimal equipment for them, the mallard, the hound, two megabeasts, pumpkins, flax, apple trees, moss and underground luminescent moss. You can remove most of those very easily too.

If someone is interested I have many idea and probably can't all of them

Share it then  ;)

227
DF Dwarf Mode Discussion / Re: Dwarven Linguistics: Community Project
« on: August 30, 2013, 01:16:02 pm »
Hey, I seem to have trouble registering on the wiki. It says there's already somebody else called Halfling there. Did my registration get processed anomalously somehow or...?

Anyway, I was frustrated that the above sample does not seem to match vanilla DF dwarfish. Already existing dwarven expressions should not look out of place and grammatically incorrect in what should be the dwarven language, like they will if the language mandates suffixes and connectors in compound nouns. Instead I think they should make them look natural and correct in context. The words should also be recognizable as the words from DF, so that you could use the provided dwarven vocabulary to translate easily (such as kin melbil osor fak ulol sanreb avuz... oak tome kingdom drain own mine).

Therefore I thought I'd give it a try too. Here's my attempt:

I have no linguistic background, I'm not a native speaker of an Indo-European language; Indo-European languages are the minority of the languages I know. So my view on what might be necessary, easy to learn or usable may be a little different for a variety of reasons. At least Mandarin and Russian influenced. I also tried to include means to express respect or aggression easily.

"In the year 1050, the dwarven civilization of Kinmelbil, "The Oaken Tomes", exhausted the last of its mines. Driven by lust for gold and rumors of the priceless and all but mythical metal adamantine, a team of seven colonists was dispatched to build a new home for the dwarves of Kinmelbil in the Smooth Points of Pride. The first year of diaries from the ill-fated foreman of the mine was recovered, giving some hint as to the beginnings of the fortress that once stood there, if not its mysterious and presumably gruesome fate..."

Informal register (easier to learn if you're used to inflected language):

Id MMLZ, Kinmelbilosor fakír ulol sanreb avuzangar. Nethgönlimul kán tithleth oman toriteshkadèg kán tel lathondèg lïd enôrkel sterus dok emal, arnòm ashok olumír lotol om siz lïdan cenäthtovon, shedsut abanim oman irbom dok, tovonankinmelbil fidgamim kân Umaräkil Nikuz. Arnòm atölír utharid om alodthîkut lïd enentaremdèg erar, otadlin lïd usenudizír om tokmek lïr arôlsavot nirsten zustash geshud dok, ash tori shovethdèg kán toritnetdèg igrish taremgar itet.

Formal register (as close as it gets to DF dwarvish, most words are uninflected and unmarked for type) that I still believe is usable once you get used to it:

Id MMLZ, Kinmelbilosor fak ulol sanreb avuzgar. Nethgönlimul kán tithleth toriteshkad kán tel lathon enôrkel sterus dok emal, ashok olum lotolsiz cenäthtovon, shedsut aban irbom dok, tovonkinmelbil fidgam kân Umaräkil Nikuz. Atöl utharid om alodthîkut enentarem erar, otadlin usenudiz tokmek arôlsavot nirsten zustash geshud dok, ash tori shoveth kán toritnet igrish taremgar itet.

Spoiler: literal translation (click to show/hide)

Spoiler: Basic grammar (click to show/hide)

Feel free to use/suggest/improve/reuse in part/ignore, it was such as a strange mood and probably not close to comparable effort to the above.

228
Thanks reemer. I like the additions. However, you did not merge it with the newest updated version of Zanzetkuken's raws - lizardmen do not have all the fixes in your version. There's potential to cause serious confusion there. (Just download his newest pack and add/overwrite your versions on top, then upload.)

Zanz, thanks for editing your download page, what I really meant by changelog though is that it would say e.g. "newest update - added nest boxes" so people will know when they need to update.

bulborbish, ready? Your turn starts once reemer has uploaded a version with newest base raws.

229
Hi again, demonic cherubim sound cool, just here to say lizardfolk can't open doors.

![CANOPENDOORS] strikes again!

@Zanzetkuken & al: please keep a changelog on your upload page. Your (Z) upload page currently reads "Most up to date raws." While this is true, it does not give you any info about whether you should download it or not if you already have an older version. You can't even deduce from this that you do have an older version, much less whether the newest fix is fixing reactions or making lizardfolk able to open doors; the assumption is people won't read the thread. People won't remember the downloads counter either.

230
DF Dwarf Mode Discussion / Re: Dwarven Linguistics: Community Project
« on: August 28, 2013, 01:53:32 pm »
@Halfling
It would be really awesome to be able to play DF in Dwarven, but IMO the constraints on the language's development are too much. Why match English? There's a whole world of options out there! What would be possible though is changing the dwarven liaison's messages, I think I saw the strings in the data file somewhere, and possibly the intro message (I know DFallout did it somehow.) That gives it all (or at least most) of the flavor, without making DF more obtuse.

That is indeed freely possible without such limitations. For windows, you'll want the "wtf2text" utility which also comes with instructions. I personally feel the main limitations of sticking to SVO for declarative sentences, adjectives before nouns being possible, adjectives not needing to match the noun they're modifying, and no in-word noun declension for simple transitive verbs is not so great, but it's your decision since I won't be developing this.

However, in my opinion, if this language is such that it matches and also gives legibility to dwarven words and combinations thereof as they are in the vanilla game, then it's interesting. If not, then largely not. The main problem is that you want to make it look like the language of DF, not like an intellectual exercise and a separate project mostly unrelated to the game. So when implementing grammar, you may not want to pad the words too much with prefixes or suffixes, especially ones not derived from the existing game vocabulary, so that it stays recognizable and doesn't end up looking like the latter rather than the former (there's already khudzul if you want to learn what seems like a mostly unrelated dwarf language).

Anyway, wish you success.

231
DF Dwarf Mode Discussion / Re: Dwarven Linguistics: Community Project
« on: August 28, 2013, 07:55:28 am »
Notably, if you get a following, you'll eventually be able to translate DF itself into dwarven language by editing the binary. On Linux and OSX you can just use strings+sed (assuming Apple did not horribly mutilate the UNIX below so it shuts up, stays in the corner and doesn't scare people looking for an expensive toy... ahem) to freely edit most of the human-readable strings, and for Windows you can download and run a third party .executable some Russians made to do the same... Thread in modding forum.

So it would be possible to play DF in fully native mode if you had a fully featured dwarven language.

This is provided the language has at least the following constraints, which make it similar to English since you can't change the grammar this way:
1. Adjectives can come before the noun that they describe
2. Nouns and adjectives are not inflected in the word, like English. Another word that comes before or after to change their role is possible --
Datan [subject marker word] [topic marker word] killed Urist [object marker word] is possible, but not I-nominal-topic killed Urist-accusative.
3. The language must be roughly equivalent in written length to English, letter for letter. It can be shorter but it shouldn't be a lot longer. This is because making the strings longer than original can cause segmentation faults, normally terminating the program.

Edit: also, word order should optimally be SVO for that in declarative clauses such as "x strikes y in the z". Custom verb conjugation however is supported in the raws for attack verbs.

232
That lizardfolk story was hilarious. Exiled by their halflings generals to live in the wild without clothes or working equipment... poor reptiles. I would put it on the first page but it might be confusing now that the bugs are fixed.

@ZTG:
I think he's asking whether there's a problem using
   [REAGENT:A:1:METAL_ORE:AERESIUMITE_LKR]
instead of
   [REAGENT:A:1:METAL_ORE:AERESIUM_LKR]
in the reaction

233
DF Dwarf Mode Discussion / Re: Dwarven Linguistics: Community Project
« on: August 27, 2013, 09:20:40 pm »
Very nice little project! Languages with completely free word order exist too.

If you wanted to make the language such that you could actually implement it in the game in a mod in full, which would be relatively easy, then you would want to do it as Chinese does things: by extra words - there's no real difference to suffixes and prefixes other than in typology.

So you would have e.g. "Did you murder Urist, the cheesemaker?" as e.g.
You murder [past tense marker word] cheese [genitive marker word] make [agent indicating word] [genitive marker word] Urist [question word]
using preceding genitives to also mark compounds.

If we imagine "you is" "dvoral", past tense marker is "-th" from geth (past), genitive marker is -reb from own (sanreb), and agent indicating word is -cim from ducim (work), and question marker is lal from kulal (wonder[verb]), then that would be using separate words:
"Dworal usán geth shokmug sanreb dobar ducim sanreb Urist kulal?"
and using short form of the words as suffixes, like a synthetic language like German or Finnish:
"Dworal usanth shokmugrebdobarimreb Urist lal?"

234
1. Reemer, how's it? Able to upload soon?



while playing I found a lizardfolk that apparently likes to consume statues and n/a?

If anyone knows how to make the Statue creature not edible, feel free to modify that in. I lack the time, though I'm pretty sure it's just an easy material body detail plan swap.

Make it drop an item corpse?



I changed Halfling's eye template during my turn to fix that (there are no major arteries in the eye!), but I guess the insect one was copied from his and I forgot to change that one.

Sure there are major arteries, the retina needs a lot of blood and the ophthalmic artery is extremely voluminous in relation to body part size. It's close (2/3?) to the diameter of the radial and ulnar arteries despite how much smaller your eye is than your hand. So major arteries in the eye is correct, but not major arteries in "eye tissue", but that's what we have... However, I didn't take into account that the game does not scale bleeding by body part size. It shouldn't have you bleed to death immediately and so your fixed material is better.



Also, while playing I found a lizardfolk that apparently likes to consume statues and n/a? I'm assuming these are related to some custom creatures, since I doubt that this strange young man consumes rocks and non-existent matter.

This n/a thing needs to be fixed. Something now contains a material that's defined improperly. It's new. This may also affect the creature since part of it is made of n/a.



I'd also be interested in a play turn; I've been playing with the most recent raws from Zanzetkuken's turn, and I realized I might as well contribute  :)
--
There does not appear to be any way to manufacture quivers. You can spawn with them in adventure mode (silk quiver) but aside from that they are nonexistent.
--
I'm also getting 'unrecognized inorganic token' spam in the errorlog:
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
And I've just started getting these errors:
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

To do a playing turn, just drop a story with pics and I'll add it as one :)
Quivers are very possible. You must make quivers out of leather.
The path fail errors are not related to our modding according to Putnam. "Cloth cloth" is intentional. Nothing is another improperly defined creature, this one lacks a name.

The unrecognized inorganic token part, however... that needs to die. Something is obviously referencing materials in a way that's copied from vanilla.

A quick search of the text files in Zanzetkuken's turn shows that there are no instances of GYPSUM or COAL_BITUMINOUS included. So what the hell is causing this?

Kazimuth, please describe exactly what files you have and/or upload if possible.

The rampant corruption in the world is not happy news at all, because things used to work more correctly. If it's like this after a few turns and this becomes a trend, then it will be worse later and at that time it's easier to just let it die than to fix it, when it's not just a few things that are broken. Can't depend on me to find and fix it either because, I'm really genuinely too busy with studies with a full working week on top of regular university study... can mostly do thread maintenance and I'll hand it over too if someone wants it.

We don't have anyone obligated to bugfix at this time, of course, since ZTG's bugfixing turn ended earlier. Not good.

235
DF Dwarf Mode Discussion / Re: Nentukurist, a steel anvil
« on: August 27, 2013, 08:56:24 am »
... thus solving the question of how the dwarven race created anvils...

... since you need an anvil to forge an anvil...

... its even better here, the holy metal steel was used for the greater glory of Armok.

No. Anvils can only be forged in a forge which requires an anvil to build, and this includes mood anvils. It doesn't require fuel, but it does require the workshop. So no origin of the first anvil here.

236
True. It was lazy. You could do a prime test where you feed creatures a number of mushrooms to initialize the syndrome-interaction computing, and in the end the computer creature vomits if the number of mushrooms eaten is prime and sweats blood if it's not. It's doable if those above registers work, (and if they don't due to the syndrome stacking, you just have to create a copy of them and make them alternate between themselves and the copy) and you add a syndrome to represent zero, with the algorithm

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

but if I ever am bored enough to do that, I'll make it its own thread. It doesn't look like I have a chance to be that bored in a long while though.

237
Hey guys! May I do a play turn? I've been playing a little bit of this in the older versions and thought it might be cool to do a play turn.

Please do, we need one

The principle sounds useful, though that specific example is weird.

Not at all, the idea is that you can use it to read, increment and decrement an integer value, so it's possible to discriminate which state and which square of memory you are in by syndromes alone (compare to the classic tape, state, table, r/w Turing machine, however, with limited pre-initialized memory as is often the case). When you can further use this value to point to itself or other values (INTEGER_N: CDI: TARGET_DWARF_N) and perform operations on them it is clear that syndromes in fact form a programmable computer.

I will not be spending hours actually proving this as there is a line, though.

238
Speaking of, here's an example of how you might use syndromes to store and operate on information. I think? "How many more units of dwarven wine were drunk during the last x phases than units of dwarven ale? Calculate and print result."

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Requires that one dwarf is transformed into an INTEGER_CREATURE affected by the INTEGER syndromes. Increments and decrements the integer when things happen on the map for x phases, then prints it by near-instantly killing as many random creatures on the map as the integer is at that point.

239
There's different claims. Even I'm not sure and I've used syndromes a ton. Research is needed...

I, for one, love the idea of having C_Variations all up in the everywhere. I'm working on c_variation_infect, which causes the affected creature to have attacks that cause the victims to become permanently weaker, and causes them to instantly die if too many of the debuffs stack on them.

I'm not getting it to work though, because apparently, if you attempt to apply two different syndromes with CE_PHYS_ATT_CHANGE tags, the second one just doesn't do anything. It doesn't even overwrite the first one. Which is bollocks, because not only does it make vamps and maybe paladins immune to infect damage, but since there's no way to delete a syndrome from a creature, not even transformation, it doesn't appear to be possible to implement the way I intended, with progressive decreases to physical stats.

Anything is possible with interactions and syndromes if you use your imagination. Like, really, I'm not even kidding. They probably make a Turing complete language and you could build a dwarven syndrome computer.

For example to make a syndrome that you can also make end when you like:

Syndrome 1: Can do interaction 1, duration t+100; Target cannot have syndrome class: SYN_CLASS; Self only, free action
Interaction 1: Target cannot have syndrome class STOP_SYN_CLASS; Add syndrome [syndrome content] to target, duration t, syndrome class is SYN_CLASS; Add copy of syndrome 1 to target;

Simple loop. Now the creature will
1) Suffer from the syndrome for t phases, and be able to restart the syndrome for t+100 phases
2) During the 100 phases when the creature does not suffer from the syndrome but can restart it, go to 1, except
3) If it at that time is also infected with a syndrome of class STOP_SYN_CLASS, instead let the syndrome expire

That would work for your system. For example. Then you make various severities of the syndrome - they only need the one loop, you can have multiple syndrome "branches" and define conditions for when each one is applied.

In case that doesn't work and the timer doesn't get extended correctly (it's been a while), then:

Syndrome 0: Can do interaction 0, start:t+101, duration 100; Self only, free action
Interaction 0: [Add syndrome 1 to self]
Syndrome 1: Can do interaction 1, duration t+100; Target cannot have syndrome class: SYN_CLASS; Self only, free action
Interaction 1: Target cannot have syndrome class STOP_SYN_CLASS; Add syndrome [syndrome content] to target, duration t, syndrome class is SYN_CLASS; Add copy of syndrome 0 to target;

is sure to work, adding a step where you wait for the content and loop syndromes to clear before restarting the loop. It's obviously not optimized at all and a mess, but you get the idea.

240
Thanks Gnorm. I like the bit about the Grand Cathedral, but above it you seem to have an unset bit about ethics (   "[ETHIC:TORTURE_FOR_INFORMATION]").



I'll expand a bit more on why teeth, leather, attacks and tissues are different from the start, 'cause I may be away for a bit again and since that can of worms was opened. Thinking about it some more, if I were to start this thread over again, I would maybe make the values more like vanilla.

My original intention was that this is not just about adding creatures and materials, but instead making completely new stuff with new values, new balances, new layout etc. A lot of (attempts at) "doing it right" was intended. Hence my creatures' layout for example attempts to be so straightforward and small compared to vanilla (the aim was to be easily legible), with stuff as c_variations instead, and why my body parts work like
"torso (TORSO), head - CON:TORSO, brain - CON:HEAD" rather than
"upper body (UB), head - CON:UB, brain - CON:HD" (which is what everybody else ended up using out of familiarity/reference).
The intended balance method was "test it against existing things" more so than "compare to vanilla values" so as to create a new balance organically, and I even mixed up balance a bit intentionally to begin with. Also, it's good to have a default creature attack speed of e.g. 300 rather than 1 - if you must deduce it by 10%, how do you do it in the latter case?

While I originally assumed this too would be part of the sexiness of the mod, I think actually more people aren't really turned on by this meta-modding stuff than are. Not a criticism, we all like what we like. However, that being so, then this stuff creates more confusion than good for the majority of people who would like to just make something a lot like vanilla in foundation such as material values and body part names, but different on the higher levels. Since the goal was a community universe, I've created a bit of an obstacle to my own goals here.

Now that it's in there though, what's done is done.

Also,
teeth may very well be broken by this universe's standards regardless. I didn't test them much and bite attacks do seem to be deadly. FWIW if this is the case feel free to balance them a bit.

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