Bay 12 Games Forum

Ultimately, i do agree with you, although i must hasten to add that there is absolutely no way for us to tell how much these girls understand about what they are doing or not, which makes it difficult to form a sensible judgement beyond the knee-jerk explosiveness that Pathos seems to so enjoy.

Personally i don't see this dance as wrong, but that is probably because i simply cannot bring myself to see any sexualisation in it. I personally do not think this is degrading or dehumanizing or anything rediculous like that, but i can definitely see the point you're coming from, and i can agree that this is perhaps skirting a little too close to the line for comfort.

Well, of course. When I say the girls don't understand, I hope I am understood to be saying, "most likely" or "statistically". While we don't know what they really do understand, we can gather that kids are supposed to develop in a certain way and that even their understanding of what they are doing, what the song means, and how others will perceive this can be construed as a problem.

I don't think the dance itself is wrong. I tend to hesitate when discussing these sorts of things, however, as it can be rather confusing when I explain myself. I'm glad you all seem to be following quite well, though. I think the dance, as the girls are, is quite an innocent display of their desire to be taken seriously while having fun and doing what they like. They probably are more interested in the music than the lyrics. When it becomes degrading or dehumanizing is when people start to call them sluts or say, "That's a whore's uniform!" or say that this is "what's wrong" with America. What they see as having fun is perceived as a very negative thing to others and they are seen as little other than dolls or puppets.

It's not so much the dancing that is degrading and dehumanizing; it's the context it appears to be happening in. It's either an exhibition or a contest and there is little chance these girls picked those outfits and got the choreography that good by themselves. They may have picked the song, but I doubt that as well. They are likely members of a common dance class that were picked because they are very good at dancing, which they are. They were then given a song which was picked by an adult, outfits picked by an adult, and taught dance moves picked by an adult. Stop me if I'm repeating myself.

The issue for me isn't the girls dancing. It really isn't. I have a long outstanding issue with child pageantry organized by adults (as opposed to by children) and these weird mother/daughter beauty pageants and dance competitions. The issue is that these girls were most likely influenced by adults to do a performance they most likely knew would turn out to look sexual. The issue is the pelvic thrusts and chest wiggles that some adult taught them. Really, it's the fact that adults motivated these children to do these things, knowing how it would look.

Honestly, it's little girls dancing. That isn't inherently sexual. Like I said prior, though, it's the amalgamation of all of these factors that the girls may have had no control over. Their goal is to have fun dancing. An adult, however, might want to show them off as sexy for some strange reason.

Out of curiousity; because it just sort of occured to me. Why exactly is these kids dancing in a sexualised way bad? I mean, ovbiously actually having sex with them is unacceptable, but pretending to be all sexy and grown up is bad for precisely what reason?

Just curious; i'm trying to work out what angle you're coming from here, although i suspect i already know.

I think it's important to realize that these girls did not choose to wear these red skimpy outfits of their own volition, nor did they choose the choreography or, possibly, even the song. My point here is that to the girls, they are having fun. This is good. Adults, however, are twisting their desire to have fun and dance around and be popular into something that can be construed as sexually charged.

Dance contests are not inherently sexually charged. I mean, just look at Dancing With the Stars. Sometimes it's sexy, but other times you've got some really weird stuff going on. Other times you have dances that mean something, like interpretative dance.

I am not saying that these little girls have decided to be sexually charged, nor that the adults that put them up to this have necessarily decided to make this sexually charged. You cannot deny, however, that the result is inherently sexual. The girls, as Pathos has stated, are thrusting their hips and shaking their undeveloped chests around. They are also dressed far more skimpy than Beyonce in the original Single Ladies video, which has already been referred to as sexy.

The point I'm attempting to make is that the girls are having fun, but the source material is inherently sexual and, when coupled with the outfits and the choreography it results in a performance that, to the public at large can be construed as sexual.

Whether or not you see the problem is moot. You do not represent all of society. None of us do. The fact is that people do perceive this as sexual, which is a negative thing when involved with children. While I do not personally think it is bad for kids to learn about anatomy and how stuff works (all stuff and not just naughty stuff, mind you) I also think that allowing, or even endorsing young children (boys included!) to dance around to a sexual, adult song dressed in sexual, adult clothes and being choreographed by sexual adults... That is wrong. It is not wrong because children shouldn't be allowed to dance, no.

It is wrong because it is imbuing what, to these girls, is just simple, fun dancing with something they do not realize to exist. Do they know that older women shake their chests when dancing to make their breasts jiggle to seem alluring? No. They do not. Yet they are performing that move in the video. Actions like these and pelvic thrusting are not construable as something else. They are moves made to be sexual.

This last bit I do not feel is applicable to the problems with this video. I don't think the little girls are intending or even aware that people can view them in a sexual way. They might not even be aware of what sexuality is. With that said, I've spoilered it so it, hopefully, doesn't derail us too much.

I... just ugh.  Little girls should play in the dirt with their goddamned dump trucks, kick soccerballs, and plant crops.  Tricycles.  Forts.  Dolls, if they're so inclined.  Dance for the sake of dancing, run around stark nekkid on occasion, whatever.  But not this sexualized crap in front of a big audience.  I think young women need a chance to just be themselves before starting on the whole appearance-altering fuckfest that adult women get thrown into.  They need to learn who they are, so that when the world starts asking them to pretend they're something they aren't they can know what's happening.  They're all right if they're a bit chubby or skinny, they're all right if they'd rather play with swords than dolls, they're all right if they're lonely, they're all right if there's too many people around.  You need a sense of self before you can put on a mask without losing that self, and I think too many women nowadays lose themselves to a mask due to starting shit like this too soon in life.

Before you learn to be perfect, you should learn to be imperfect.  Life will be gentler, that way.

I think this holds true for anyone. Keep in mind that the only audience here isn't all those people cheering for girls dancing to a sexualized song in a somewhat vaguely sexual manner dressed far more skimpy than Beyonce was... There might be other kids watching. What this becomes is a thing saying, "Yes, this is cool. Look at all the attention they are getting and no one is mad!"

I don't understand how people can say this is not sexual. We are talking about Single Ladies. This song is not a "Yay, let's dance!" song. The intent of this song is not a "Yay, let's dance!" song. Adults picked the song, adults picked the outfits, and adults taught them the choreography. Why is it so hard to see that this is a bunch of little girls who, to them are having fun and dancing... but to random people on the internet it can be construed as little girls doing a very sexual dance to a sexual song with a crowd cheering them on? Earlier in the thread people have said this. People are still saying this.

Yes, it's what kids do. Yes, they're really damn good dancers. Yes, they were likely pushed into it by their parents. Yes, the crowd's likely intent is to applaud their dancing skill and not to critique the performance's unintended message, which is something about little girls doing sexy dances. It makes my brain hurt to think about.

I think we do this a whole heaping helping of disservice if we do not view it from all angles. Children dance and have fun and that's precious. They do this to any music. If you put on "I Like Big Butts", you can probably get a baby to dance to it. A pervert who would like to molest that child, however, will probably think that's sexy and that the kid likes big butts. When you have people dancing choreographed to a song, it is implied that they are carrying the meaning of that song. So if a group of little girls is dancing to a song about a woman going to a club, picking up a man, and having sex with him, then it can be construed (Arguably!) that the intended message is that these little girls do these things.

Children also do things that we don't want to see. They poop. It's natural. Do we want to see that? Hopefully, no. Would it be wise to post that on YouTube? Not at all. Children also run around naked from time to time. Hopefully no one here particularly wants to see that. This would, likewise, be unwise to post anywhere. The question here is, do these girls realize what's going on? Do they realize that they are being simplified to the point where they are little more than very articulate dolls dancing around? Do they realize that what they are construing as fun is being interpreted differently by different people? Do they realize that their outfits, while costume clothes, are being seen and perceived in different ways with different connotations by different people? Likely not. I think this is why, to me, this is most disgusting. These girls are being objectified to the point to where they aren't human, anymore. They are toys for whoever dressed them up and made them dance. They are puppets. They are a conduit through which someone can live out their frustrated dreams and wishes.

Remember: While these are little girls, very adult ideas are being pushed onto them by adults.

NEW CHANNELING SUCKS!
Old channeling is better.

I applaud your enthusiasm, yet question your methods.

A game that promotes that would be the best thing I have ever seen.

EVE not only promotes it, they revolve the in-game news around it. Seriously. When cloaking came out, people immediately started training and adapting their pirating techniques. Now that exploration skills have tutorials and whatnot, people understand that you can actually use some of them to locate ships. Specific ships, too.

I've heard tell CCP may even be adding tracking bugs into the game that you can discover and remove in any station with a repair bay. That would make pirating a lot more interesting. You'd have to be even more paranoid that someone was watching you. Doubt that'll happen, though.

Quote from: Thief^ on May 06, 2010, 06:33:06 pm

Quote from: Sir Pseudonymous on May 06, 2010, 04:36:06 pm

Quote from: Thief^ on May 06, 2010, 08:50:13 am

Also, entering lowsec and saying "hi guys" is a great way to see what the inside of your ship an empty local chat looks like.
In fact entering lowsec at all. The gates between low and high security space are pretty much camped 24/7. completely safe 99% of the time, with the exception of a few specific systems.

Fixed.

That's true, but no-one will believe you

From what I've experienced, this.

Typically if someone's camping a gate, you won't know it. They'll have a cloaked ship looking for any juicy prey and, when they find it, they scramble and call in the reinforcements. Although I have heard of a rather coordinated group of pirates... They sit exploration ships around a system's sun and watch the gates from there. It's harder to do, but they can actually watch where you're going and have a fleet waiting for you if they're particularly skilled.

Ahh, the fun logistical side of pirating...

Quote from: Zombie on May 09, 2010, 10:37:47 pm

I want to teach classes. I'd be nocturnal. I'd also wear a cape, just to make people wonder.

I do wear a cape occasionally; usually just when it's cold and windy or rainy. I used to wear all the time before I started teaching; I should probably start doing that again so I don't forget who I really am. When I'm teaching logarithms I dress up as John Napier because he was the awesomest mathematician ever.

I would dress up as Yuki Nagato because she can reprogram reality. Seriously.