Bay 12 Games Forum

It's MATERIAL_FORCE_MULTIPLIER, which "Sets the force multiplier of a specific material against the creature to A/B. For example, 10:1 multiplies the force by 10."

Does anyone know what values werebeasts get?  1:10 for normal metals was mentioned, but what about the special metal?  Is that normal 1:1, or is it 10:1, or some other value?  If it's 10:1, the minecart thing I mentioned would work briliantly, because if I'm understanding what "force" means in this context, the special minecart would be effectively going 100 times faster or be 100 times heavier (does it make a difference which in DF combat mechanics?), and a gentle shove would become a gory mess.  Might require fine tuning if you want to keep the werecreature.

I believe most metals are half as effective and the metal that it's weak to is twice as effective. There's nothing on the wiki though so I guess I don't have any evidence for that, but I remember hearing that from somewhere not just making it up. As for the size thing which was brought up with werelizards, according to the wiki the minimum werecreature size is 80,000 compared to the standard human 70,000 or dwarf 60,000.

Quote from: vjmdhzgr on March 16, 2015, 06:26:09 pm

Quote from: Pwned dwarf on March 16, 2015, 06:15:02 pm

Quote from: vjmdhzgr on March 15, 2015, 11:50:44 pm

Everybody's coming up with all these ways to kill the merchant, but really just full masterwork divine armor, legendary in all fighting skills, 5,000 in every attribute [TRAP_IMMUNE], [FIRE_IMMUNE_SUPER], and [NO_BREATHE] will easily make him immune to all but an obsidian trap in which case you're obsidianizing the goods as well so there's no point.

[TRAP_IMMUNE] has two catches, a unconcious creature will ALWAYS be trapped, and a webbed trap traps anything that doesn't spin webs. A siege weapon will wreck him, since armor defends against blunt attacks less, catapults with cinnabar, the heaviest stone you can get without exploits. Or even some other stone. The only reason why catapults are worse than ballistas is since Ballistas pierce through enemies and are edged. So the Catapults superior blunt damage and ignoring allies makes it pathetically easy to kill him. A single hit to a leg will knock him over, a hit to the head could knock him unconscious or just kill him. Since most body parts have bones, any hit could make him give into pain from a bone fracture. If you find a way to bypass that, just make a bridge over a pit that has spikes at the bottom. Which will make him explode AND get all his organs impaled.

[NOPAIN] [NOEXERT]
EDIT: also [WEB_IMMUNE] forgot that one.

If he gets hit in a [STANCE] part he'll still be knocked over, a headshot can knock him unconsious (and let him be trapped or murdered by military) or kill him, a hand or arm shot will make him drop his shield or weapon, and a bridge can still make him fall 50 z levels onto a ☼menacing steel spike☼

You're saying all this like Toady can't just make the merchant actually invincible. It doesn't really matter if a dwarf would be easily killed by this, think more whether a demon wearing masterwork divine armor could be killed by it. It really doesn't matter what the merchant is in the end, the idea is to make it so if you try to steal from the merchant there's a severe penalty. The initial post said the merchant was sent by Armok himself so maybe even just make it so the merchant doesn't put up a fight, but after they die an entire army of angels show up. Thinking about it, that might actually be better. You get multiple enemies so they're more difficult to kill with traps, and you don't immediately get punished so maybe it seems like you're going to be okay for a moment, then suddenly you can never go outside again.

I thought if you only used your fists, it would stay in non-lethal combat.

(Also, blows to the head only work like that in fiction.)

Combat levels only affect what attacks your opponent will use. It's even happened to me several times that I entered non-lethal combat, but got punched to death.

Quote from: vjmdhzgr on March 15, 2015, 11:50:44 pm

Everybody's coming up with all these ways to kill the merchant, but really just full masterwork divine armor, legendary in all fighting skills, 5,000 in every attribute [TRAP_IMMUNE], [FIRE_IMMUNE_SUPER], and [NO_BREATHE] will easily make him immune to all but an obsidian trap in which case you're obsidianizing the goods as well so there's no point.

[TRAP_IMMUNE] has two catches, a unconcious creature will ALWAYS be trapped, and a webbed trap traps anything that doesn't spin webs. A siege weapon will wreck him, since armor defends against blunt attacks less, catapults with cinnabar, the heaviest stone you can get without exploits. Or even some other stone. The only reason why catapults are worse than ballistas is since Ballistas pierce through enemies and are edged. So the Catapults superior blunt damage and ignoring allies makes it pathetically easy to kill him. A single hit to a leg will knock him over, a hit to the head could knock him unconscious or just kill him. Since most body parts have bones, any hit could make him give into pain from a bone fracture. If you find a way to bypass that, just make a bridge over a pit that has spikes at the bottom. Which will make him explode AND get all his organs impaled.

[NOPAIN] [NOEXERT]
EDIT: also [WEB_IMMUNE] forgot that one.

Quote from: vjmdhzgr on March 16, 2015, 05:24:57 pm

Quote from: Bumber on March 16, 2015, 12:13:02 am

Quote from: vjmdhzgr on March 15, 2015, 11:50:44 pm

Everybody's coming up with all these ways to kill the merchant, but really just full masterwork divine armor, legendary in all fighting skills, 5,000 in every attribute [TRAP_IMMUNE], [FIRE_IMMUNE_SUPER], and [NO_BREATHE] will easily make him immune to all but an obsidian trap in which case you're obsidianizing the goods as well so there's no point.

Don't the goods survive obsidianization?

I was under the impression nothing survives obsidianization.

I'm pretty sure that magma-proof items survive and are just entombed in the stone.

Quote from: Wiki

All magma-safe items will be entombed in the tile, and can be regained by mining it along with any magma-unsafe items that happened to survive the casting process.

Hm. Alright then. I still think it's best that we make it possible to try to steal from the merchant, but make the merchant ridiculously, like, entire military destroying powerful. So I guess the only way to solve that obsidianizing problem would be to code in a new ability for some creatures to be able to survive it. I'm thinking maybe just have it so if that creature stands in magma or water, that magma or water can not be turned into obsidian, or the more fun way of making it seem like the trap kills them, but then you send your miner over and the merchants explodes out of the rock and kills the miner. The items could also be tied to the merchant's life so if they die the items disappear or maybe turn to lead or something worhtless like that, but I think it would be better to present an impossible obstacle with an actual reward for overcoming it rather than a cruel joke.

The limit is how fast you can get the on/off signals to them. A lever on repeat is pretty standard and easy, but fairly slow. A mechanical repeater is faster but requires more engineering, especially if you want an on/off switch. I tend to use levers and make the spike hall a little longer. A stairway leading up to a lockable hatch at the end helps, if the enemies look to be making it past the spikes, lock the hatch and they will walk back out, taking more hits.

Could you link two levers to the same upright spike and then set them both on repeat to double the speed?

Would Frog men be a fort race? I kinda like them, it could be like this:

-The surfase civs, the ones who use copper, would be what you control. "Savage" cave Frog men could be educated and brought into the population.
-max metal would be iron, copper for beggining.
-require regular hydration in form of submersion in water., that need replacing the Dwarf need for alcohol. Maybe would be buffed if fully hydrated.
-new traps and other things because of the ability to tame and utilize amphibious or underwater creatures. Like giant Olms, crocs or other things.
-would use Kobold like weapons, tribal mostly.
-Would still need air but of course could go under for long periods like half a day before needing to go up for air.
-would need to use animals, their amphibiuse abilities, and numbers to make up for their small (Kobold like) size.

Just some ideas, any suggestions?  oh and sorry for any spelling mistakes!

I don't think that hydration mechanic is possible. Also fortress mode citizens never path through water. Even if they're legendary swimmers that can breathe underwater. I also don't think new traps are programmable, and dwarves can already tame amphibious creatures, and even water creatures. Water creatures are really difficult though, but I'm pretty sure nothing can be done to reduce that difficulty.

Water stuff in general just can't really be modded into the game except maybe with some intense df-hack wizardry, and unfortunately removing the water stuff they're basically kobolds, but without all the interesting kobold stuff.

Quote from: BoredVirulence on March 14, 2015, 04:25:47 pm

I tried to highlight the important portions, but TL;DR, make use of magic up to the individual to use and practice. Make learning required, and only for those with inclined personalities. Make learning the spell's just as important as learning "magic" in general. Keep gamey stuff out, let the simulation decide who learns what, and how its used. Since knowledge would stay in a small group of people, and its up to individual's free will to use it, it can't be industrialized.

What if the player creates a bunch of adventurer mages and retires them at a fort?

Well becoming a mage in adventurer mode will be difficult so if somebody really wants to go through a difficult process a bunch of times to retire them into their fort only to unretire the fort and find that it's a massive mess and it's basically ruined then I think that's fine.