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Author Topic: Unpopular DF Opinions?  (Read 23403 times)

MrWiggles

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Re: Unpopular DF Opinions?
« Reply #30 on: February 08, 2012, 02:06:47 am »

It ticks me off when people build perfect trap defense instead of turning invader:off
I think toady has shiny new toy syndrome.
I think alot of the random thing that people praise DF for is retarded and the user has very little input over the control of many intricate things.

I dont think he has shiny new toy syndrome. Everything that has gone into the game can be found on the original old Dev List, which have been static for years.
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rephikul

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Re: Unpopular DF Opinions?
« Reply #31 on: February 08, 2012, 02:13:08 am »

Doesnt mean he dont just chase after whatever concept he has in mind with little coherence. For example, there's little relations between the various adventure changes and the upcoming necromancy thingie with the current arc: caravan & economy.
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MrWiggles

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Re: Unpopular DF Opinions?
« Reply #32 on: February 08, 2012, 02:21:14 am »

Doesnt mean he dont just chase after whatever concept he has in mind with little coherence. For example, there's little relations between the various adventure changes and the upcoming necromancy thingie with the current arc: caravan & economy.
Yes there is, if you read the dev logs, he displays his reasonings out quite clearly.

ToadyOne worked on the city generations, and the trade routes happening during world generation. He had merchants, and improved their shop interface and payment, made a mini town map to navigate the new cities. He got that all settled. 

And saw that he had these new, expansive cities, with nothing to do in them. He spent a long while adding in these important infrastructure for the later improvements, but it didnt actually improve the game for the player.

The night creatures existed previously, and were expanded upon further, coming closer to completing what he hoped to accomplish during their first time around. Necromancers, mummies, werebeasts, and vampires provide things to do in them, actually gives something fun to have with these cities. It gave the sewers the catacombs something to have down there.

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MaskedMiner

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Re: Unpopular DF Opinions?
« Reply #33 on: February 08, 2012, 02:23:08 am »

What small random things are you talking about anyway?
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rephikul

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Re: Unpopular DF Opinions?
« Reply #34 on: February 08, 2012, 02:39:14 am »

-snip-
And how are any of these related to trading and economy improvement? It remains static, even in adventure mode. You have just explained my point. He trails off from the fundamental features because the stuff he's working on is (probably) more fun to work on.

What small random things are you talking about anyway?
Like say, a recruit somehow oneshot a megabeast and you have a 200+ post thread talking about how awesome it is. It's retarded because it shouldnt happen and it happen every so often anyway to warrant so much discussion.
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MrWiggles

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Re: Unpopular DF Opinions?
« Reply #35 on: February 08, 2012, 02:43:57 am »

-snip-
And how are any of these related to trading and economy improvement? It remains static, even in adventure mode. You have just explained my point. He trails off from the fundamental features because the stuff he's working on is (probably) more fun to work on.

The trade and caravan ark is about fleshing out the civilizations, their sites, and interactions among themselves, with player forts. So that when the Army Ark happens, they have the means to draw a narrative and reasons to go to war with each other.

Its entirely in line.
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rephikul

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Re: Unpopular DF Opinions?
« Reply #36 on: February 08, 2012, 03:00:18 am »

The trade and caravan ark is about fleshing out the civilizations, their sites, and interactions among themselves, with player forts. So that when the Army Ark happens, they have the means to draw a narrative and reasons to go to war with each other.

Its entirely in line.
And yet non-human sites are non-existant; trading isnt dynamic since he last worked on it; their interaction isnt dynamics and remain the same since forever. Nothing is new on the diplomacy front. In place of that, we have an unofficial adventurer arc. I started playing since 31.12 which's at least 2 years ago and I have yet to see a significant change in fortress mode. Critical features arent shrines or catacombs under cities.
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MrWiggles

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Re: Unpopular DF Opinions?
« Reply #37 on: February 08, 2012, 03:10:44 am »

There are no critical features in dwarf fortress. There only near feature ones. And you happen to join the community at the tail end of a major release, and right before the start of another major release. I happen to join the community right after 40d was release. I saw more then a year before another release.

This is release one of the caravan arc. Well, the other half of the release for release one. And the tools to make trading more dynamic, to make interactions between cities more interesting were laid down in this release.

And diplomacy isn't really part of the caravan arc.
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Alastar

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Re: Unpopular DF Opinions?
« Reply #38 on: February 08, 2012, 03:11:23 am »

I think there's too much focus on metal-based technology and would like the low end expanded,, especially for weaponcrafting: bone weapons, leather hardening, values for wood and wooden weapons that make sense (e.g. staves) rather than the current nerf toys.  I think adamantine in the way it's currently implemented is lame (this isn't the metal of the gods, it's brittle magic fairy glass!).

And while I put a lot of effort into fully automated mousetraps, I'm saddened at how effective they are.
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Muz

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Re: Unpopular DF Opinions?
« Reply #39 on: February 08, 2012, 03:22:13 am »

I hate ASCII art. I just find it very unimpressive and pretentious.

I absolutely avoid savescumming.

I avoid traps completely. I don't wall myself in. I avoid magma. I feel they make the game too easy.

At one time, I wrote a 20+ page paper on Dwarf Fortress for my Strategic Leadership and Ethics class. Since then, I build ethical fortress - I avoid anything that can cause dwarf deaths, build safety systems and gates on anything dangerous (especially plumbing), and when I dig out that last tile to magma, I make sure that the dwarf gets away safely. I also build my garbage pit underground to prevent polluting the environment. Also avoid magma weaponization as they're the ethical equivalent of strategic bombing.
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rephikul

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Re: Unpopular DF Opinions?
« Reply #40 on: February 08, 2012, 03:31:46 am »

There are no critical features in dwarf fortress. There only near feature ones.
There are features that greatly shape the ingame universe and those that're unknown until an adventurer walk by. Features that shape the world are involved in many things and thus need to be written first if possible to be the foundation for everything else. Foundation features are, well, critical. If you work on many mini features beforehand then having to rewrite a lot of them is unavoidable when you do want to implement the critical one one, costing tremendous time and efforts. Imagine him working on the adventure mode (a feature) before having a working display (a critical feature, relatively).

This is release one of the caravan arc. Well, the other half of the release for release one. And the tools to make trading more dynamic, to make interactions between cities more interesting were laid down in this release.

And diplomacy isn't really part of the caravan arc.
Tell me how city interaction isnt diplomacy.
di·plo·ma·cy [dih-ploh-muh-see] noun
1. The conduct by government officials of negotiations and other relations between nations.
« Last Edit: February 08, 2012, 03:36:11 am by rephikul »
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MrWiggles

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Re: Unpopular DF Opinions?
« Reply #41 on: February 08, 2012, 03:56:16 am »

There are no critical features in dwarf fortress. There only near feature ones.
There are features that greatly shape the ingame universe and those that're unknown until an adventurer walk by. Features that shape the world are involved in many things and thus need to be written first if possible to be the foundation for everything else. Foundation features are, well, critical. If you work on many mini features beforehand then having to rewrite a lot of them is unavoidable when you do want to implement the critical one one, costing tremendous time and efforts. Imagine him working on the adventure mode (a feature) before having a working display (a critical feature, relatively).
Then Necro's, and Mummies, and werebeasts, are all foundation, and therefore critical features. Necromancers, and their towers, are test pilots for the interaction system. The necromancer goal is to learn the vile secret, grow to hate the world, resurrect an undead army and try to take it over. Thats all foundation for the villains that will be needed to plague the world during the army arc.


Quote
This is release one of the caravan arc. Well, the other half of the release for release one. And the tools to make trading more dynamic, to make interactions between cities more interesting were laid down in this release.

And diplomacy isn't really part of the caravan arc.
Tell me how city interaction isnt diplomacy.
di·plo·ma·cy [dih-ploh-muh-see] noun
1. The conduct by government officials of negotiations and other relations between nations.

Diplomacy, in how it's been used for Dwarf Fortress, is relations between countries. For trading, the wording for that has been Trade Agreement. Diplomacy, has been spoken of in the context for Army Arc. Trade Agreement approvments are on the docket for these series of releases.
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rephikul

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Re: Unpopular DF Opinions?
« Reply #42 on: February 08, 2012, 04:25:19 am »

Then Necro's, and Mummies, and werebeasts, are all foundation, and therefore critical features.
Please do elaborate.

Necromancers, and their towers, are test pilots for the interaction system. The necromancer goal is to learn the vile secret, grow to hate the world, resurrect an undead army and try to take it over. Thats all foundation for the villains that will be needed to plague the world during the army arc.
You cant get it more wrong. The interaction system can work without the necromancy thingie. The necromancers would be totally pointless without any interaction with the rest of the system. Since Toady want to do necromancers with the new interaction system; the interactions are things that need to be in first and tested on existing entities unless of course, he wants to half-bake necromancer's interactions and rewrite that later.

Diplomacy, in how it's been used for Dwarf Fortress, is relations between countries. For trading, the wording for that has been Trade Agreement. Diplomacy, has been spoken of in the context for Army Arc. Trade Agreement approvments are on the docket for these series of releases.
Despite the fancy wording it boils down to entity A interact with entity B to determine which scenarios their citizens carry out between each other as well as to determine the scenarios that can happen in subsequent interactions. Have you played games such as Civlization? Interactions between civilizations be it war or trading are all carried out under the "Diplomacy" view.
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OldPrussia

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Re: Unpopular DF Opinions?
« Reply #43 on: February 08, 2012, 04:39:28 am »

I don't try to "Time travel" to save a fort,I kinda like watching it fall.
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MaskedMiner

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Re: Unpopular DF Opinions?
« Reply #44 on: February 08, 2012, 05:38:09 am »

This game is in alpha. Of course it doesn't have all "Important features" you are talking about. I also don't see why he can't add all "cool stuff" earlier if he wants to.

I mean, I've been waiting Dungeon Master to work again after I've joined, but you don't hear my complaining about it.
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