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Author Topic: Has anyone succesfully generated a very long history?  (Read 52296 times)

Feb

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Re: Has anyone succesfully generated a very long history?
« Reply #75 on: February 20, 2012, 12:12:06 pm »

Biopass, you are aware that you just announced to the community that you are one of the few ppls able to create a large world with a decent history.  Now watch as flood of people start asking you for saves :3  Hell, I'll be the first in line!

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dirty foot

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Re: Has anyone succesfully generated a very long history?
« Reply #76 on: February 20, 2012, 01:57:57 pm »

Biopass, you are aware that you just announced to the community that you are one of the few ppls able to create a large world with a decent history.  Now watch as flood of people start asking you for saves :3  Hell, I'll be the first in line!
I think a lot of people can do that, the issue is getting large world and very long history at the same time. I am new to uploading maps, so if anyone could direct me to a place that can explain how and where to do so, I can start pumping some out.

Just genned a medium world to 1050 years in 20 minutes. Currently genning a large world, but I'm a full hour in and it's still at year 242 out of the desired 550.

Were you using the "large address aware" exe? If not, you may just get to 1050, depending on your computer.

There's a large address aware exe? Where is it, and who do I have to kill to get it?
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The usual pile of dead trader elves is enough for me. I'll settle for one carp.
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xaldin

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Re: Has anyone succesfully generated a very long history?
« Reply #77 on: February 20, 2012, 02:24:14 pm »

Just genned a medium world to 1050 years in 20 minutes. Currently genning a large world, but I'm a full hour in and it's still at year 242 out of the desired 550.

Were you using the "large address aware" exe? If not, you may just get to 1050, depending on your computer.

There's a large address aware exe? Where is it, and who do I have to kill to get it?

For comparison could you post the world gen file for the medium world you built? I'd be interested in seeing it. I have horrid slowdown for the history portion even for medium, fact all sizes. Given that I have the fastest processor intel makes for PCs and the fastest ram on the market I'm inclined to believe there is a parameter that is costing all the processing time that you may have adjusted and gone right on by to do 1050 years in 20 minutes.
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Biopass

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Re: Has anyone succesfully generated a very long history?
« Reply #78 on: February 20, 2012, 02:49:51 pm »

Just genned a medium world to 1050 years in 20 minutes. Currently genning a large world, but I'm a full hour in and it's still at year 242 out of the desired 550.

Were you using the "large address aware" exe? If not, you may just get to 1050, depending on your computer.

There's a large address aware exe? Where is it, and who do I have to kill to get it?

For comparison could you post the world gen file for the medium world you built? I'd be interested in seeing it. I have horrid slowdown for the history portion even for medium, fact all sizes. Given that I have the fastest processor intel makes for PCs and the fastest ram on the market I'm inclined to believe there is a parameter that is costing all the processing time that you may have adjusted and gone right on by to do 1050 years in 20 minutes.

World can be downloaded at: http://www.mediafire.com/?scluk5j664wfdvl

It was a pure vanilla world, all I did was set it to medium and long history. I haven't had a chance to mess around with other settings yet. I did spend about an hour working on a large world with long history, but it chugged to a near-halt and I killed it to try other things. I don't have time right now, but I'm going to load up the large address aware .exe when I'm out of classes for the day and see what happens.

So far, it looks like world size is a bigger barrier in genning worlds for me than the history length is. When my large world became unbearably slow, it was around 250 years. I'm genning a large world for Feb right now, I'll see what it looks like when I'm done with classes. Interestingly enough, memory wasn't an issue for the failed large world, DF was around 1.1gb when I killed it. We'll see what happens.
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xaldin

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Re: Has anyone succesfully generated a very long history?
« Reply #79 on: February 20, 2012, 04:07:37 pm »

That's really pretty interesting honestly. Reason I say this is I've gone through world generation doing essentially same thing and the medium just bogged down at around 230-240ish like clockwork.  I've tried essentially removing caves (1) and it bogged down same time, I've limited civilizations to 5, bogged down around 275. Dropped populations, sites, culled and not culled and world gen around 240-275 just about crawls to a halt no matter what I do with it. I've tried with and without the exe patch with no discernible change. There is something in the world history generation system that when it hits that date range it just brings the system to a halt. Oddly it doesn't even stress the CPU all that much it just goes into never never land and only periodically updates.
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Biopass

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Re: Has anyone succesfully generated a very long history?
« Reply #80 on: February 20, 2012, 04:43:00 pm »

It bogged for me as well, but kept on going and didn't slow too much after 300.

The second large world/long history did crash, didn't see at what point. I'm trying the other exe, we'll see what happens. This was a request though, with ridiculously high caves and titan numbers, so I'm guessing that's a probable cause of the crash. I'll lower them after trying with the LAW version.
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NW_Kohaku

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Re: Has anyone succesfully generated a very long history?
« Reply #81 on: February 20, 2012, 04:51:35 pm »

That's really pretty interesting honestly. Reason I say this is I've gone through world generation doing essentially same thing and the medium just bogged down at around 230-240ish like clockwork.  I've tried essentially removing caves (1) and it bogged down same time, I've limited civilizations to 5, bogged down around 275. Dropped populations, sites, culled and not culled and world gen around 240-275 just about crawls to a halt no matter what I do with it. I've tried with and without the exe patch with no discernible change. There is something in the world history generation system that when it hits that date range it just brings the system to a halt. Oddly it doesn't even stress the CPU all that much it just goes into never never land and only periodically updates.

It's werecritters.

Werecritters infect other people in a geometric growth pattern. 

Each werecritter will then go on a rampage of their own in the town.

A town will start out, only getting attacked by 1 werecritter per year, then someone gets infected, and you get 2 attacks per year, then they infect someone else, and you get 4 per year.

In one game I checked legends mode, and by the end of a 350-year worldgen, one city was getting over 100 werecritter attacks per year, and had 100 lairs nearby.  That was 10,000 werecritter rampages in a 350 world, with the first 80 years never having had any attacks at all.

EACH one of those werecritter rampages stops the worldgen and has to be resolved manually, involving generally a dozen different combats, and some chicken-devouring, plus the occasional combat with civilians, who most frequently run away.  EACH of these rampages generates another dozen or so lines in legends mode. 

As far as I can tell, the overwhelming bulk of Worldgen is being taken up by a combination of resource movements in towns, werecritter attacks, and tracking vampires carrying 300 totem items from all their kills. 

This is in addition to the bugginess related to tables overwhelming towns.
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Neonivek

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Re: Has anyone succesfully generated a very long history?
« Reply #82 on: February 20, 2012, 04:57:54 pm »

What the game needs to do is abstract unimportant actions.

Do we REALLY care about random assaults a Werebeast or vampire does? or heck even a Megabeast?
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xaldin

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Re: Has anyone succesfully generated a very long history?
« Reply #83 on: February 20, 2012, 05:20:14 pm »

The xml for the legends on that medium you did is around 2.5Gigs. 

So events shoot up in number until they hit a peak of about 4000 per year after about year 250 (from about 2000 around 250 to 4k around 300) where it levels off then actually declines to around 3k per year at around 750.
Alive historical figures peaks about year 350 then goes into a decline. At around 250 to 350 though it goes up about 50% then starts declining in late 300s (375ish). 
Active sites didn't really change much after year 150 so sites probably aren't our problem. Same for wars/battles/, they reached an equalization around 150 and after.

Beast attacks interestingly dropped off sharply after 250. Since you were able to generate all way I'm wondering if it was because of a massive beast drop off. It is the first stat that really changed downward that might affect future years. Though event generation was stable in the later years beasts weren't adding to it. I tend to have a ton of beasts so if I get lucky/unlucky and they live through the initial years they'd generate a lot of beast attacks later.

Amusingly a civ of goblins was totally kicking around a dwarf civ. But when it lost wars it was losing thousands, its wins were typically few hundred kills and losses.
4 Age of legends, 5 age of myths total. First age (myth) lasted until 547.  Normally when I'm watching it generate the first age doesn't make it that far. 40 Civs total, 8 Dwarf/Elf/Human/Goblin/Kobold.

Kobolds are almost extinct.  7 alive historical figures, 2278 site pop.  Goblins down to 3438 pop. Compared to human at 90k, elf 138k, dwarf 269k.  Oh and cats at 31k, dogs 22k.
Battle deaths by race, kobolds 1.  Think we may still have a starvation problem with kobolds given that deaths for race are 8477. Still had 243 forgotten beasts and 171 night creature.

Deaths by cause: starved 729430.  Struck 101688, old age 39065.  I don't think they worried to much about old age... over 1000 years and only 39k died to it. Yeah retirement homes are not the business to go into, nobody needs them. They starved mostly.

Interesting pops:
Mosquitoes 24,113,613
Flies: 23,902,667
Sperm Whale Men: 343,734
lynx: 3 shame they're neat animals.


So out of all that I think I'm going to try tinkering with the megabeast/titan generation as one spot that it might be affecting. Also looks like kobolds still need some tinkering but not for worldgen slowdown reasons.  Were creatures are possible I guess. Can't quantify that since legends viewer I can't find a way to separate them from the base creature. Way to test that is to put 0 for werecreature and see if that it is. Same for vampire. Think I'll go do that.

edit: So making it with 0 vampire and werebeast allows my system to generate at about 1 year per second and half after the initial burst. Looks like it'll finish up as I'm on year 915 and climbing. So next modification I'll make is to put vampire back to default and see if that impacts it. Then try with were at default and no vampire.
« Last Edit: February 20, 2012, 05:55:06 pm by xaldin »
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Biopass

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Re: Has anyone succesfully generated a very long history?
« Reply #84 on: February 20, 2012, 05:58:02 pm »

My face when for every 10 mosquitoes in the world, there is one humanoid whale.

Current worldgen has been running for almost an hour now, and is on year 231. Each year takes about a full minute to complete right now. I'm thinking large worlds are no longer a realistic possibility, probably simply because of the were-* stuff that Kohaku mentioned.

There is some megabeast weirdness, because I genned another medium world to 1050 years that was in the Golden Age most of the time. Didn't see exactly, but it looked like it was before 250 that it started.
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malvado

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Re: Has anyone succesfully generated a very long history?
« Reply #85 on: February 20, 2012, 06:00:04 pm »

Telamore : There's definitely consumer mainboards out there that supports ECC and 32Gb of ram http://www.asus.com/Motherboards/AMD_AM3Plus/SABERTOOTH_990FX/#specifications
Personally I've had around 8GB of ram now for about 4 years, mainly due to the programs I use in an 64bit environment.

Now, I do aknowledge that consumers have been sitting on 2Gb to 4GB fair to long, but this is mainly due to the fact that most consumers didn't upgrade (downgrade in some cases :P ) from Windows Xp to Windows Vista and instead waited all the way untill Windows 7 was out to even consider changing their Os. Now we are seeing a migration towards both Windows 7 (and probably 8 soon) where users will want more memory so that their speeding fast SSD's aren't stopped by a limited system memory.
Gamers will also see to some extents the benefits from more system memory (and fast SSD's) since developers will no longer be directly limited by the 32 bits limitations and can make their games use more memory (both from the system and from the graphics card).

As for Dwarf Fortress needing a complete rewrite if Toady was to make it 64 bits I'd say it all depends on how he actually has built it , in some cases it might actually not be that complicated and some tools might even be used to facilitate the process , going multithreaded might be a larger pain though, but might as well be possible if you run some background process that keeps track of what the cpu is used for and sorts out what might actually be done simultaneuosly on another core).

Anyway I'm not an expert and might be pretty wrong about this, however it's the impression I'm left with after having read development from other games as well.
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dirty foot

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Re: Has anyone succesfully generated a very long history?
« Reply #86 on: February 20, 2012, 06:08:17 pm »

What the game needs to do is abstract unimportant actions.

Do we REALLY care about random assaults a Werebeast or vampire does? or heck even a Megabeast?
I do.

It's those little situations that evolve into the widowed dwarf that murdered 8000 elves in her lifetime. Can't have a middle or ending without a beginning.

The problem is optimizing how the data is processed.
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Neonivek

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Re: Has anyone succesfully generated a very long history?
« Reply #87 on: February 20, 2012, 06:11:56 pm »

He can still have killed 8000 elves.

But the game treats all those 8000 elves seriously when really it could just be extrapolated.
« Last Edit: February 20, 2012, 06:59:50 pm by Neonivek »
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xaldin

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Re: Has anyone succesfully generated a very long history?
« Reply #88 on: February 20, 2012, 07:02:19 pm »

Welp it definitely is the were creatures. Turned them on, freeze up after a while.  Vampirism however appears to have little to no noticeable impact to the generation times (average per year was within .5 seconds and at that point it is almost a measuring problem.

So if you want long histories turn off Werecurses (0 instead of 14). If everything else is default it'll speed for a little bit, then slow down but remain constant from that point on. I'd say the were creatures are the bad problem, probably because of the infection system.

On my system it was average about 1 to 1.5 seconds per year after the initial burst and was like that until the end.
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Feb

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Re: Has anyone succesfully generated a very long history?
« Reply #89 on: February 20, 2012, 07:37:19 pm »

My face when for every 10 mosquitoes in the world, there is one humanoid whale.

Current worldgen has been running for almost an hour now, and is on year 231. Each year takes about a full minute to complete right now. I'm thinking large worlds are no longer a realistic possibility, probably simply because of the were-* stuff that Kohaku mentioned.

There is some megabeast weirdness, because I genned another medium world to 1050 years that was in the Golden Age most of the time. Didn't see exactly, but it looked like it was before 250 that it started.

Feel free to remove the werecurse to zero if that helps, then trim the titans/mb/smb as you see fit, I can't believe I'm saying this, but I've used up most of a small world's site embarkment already.  Time to delete and try some semi-serious forts on a medium world.  I think I've gathered enough generic !!science!! in regards to evil/good embarks already, moving onto magma experiments now :3

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