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Author Topic: Future of the Fortress  (Read 2352599 times)

Dirst

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #10455 on: April 26, 2014, 08:58:14 am »

I'm still saying early to mid June just because. My guts tell me that this version has bugs that will require that much and also the optimization part that is no small when you consider the dynamic and live world we are getting. Of course I hope it gets done earlier but whatever time it takes it's fine.
The worldgen machinery churns through game-centuries in a few minutes.  I don't think a daily or weekly "tick" in the world is going to slow down the game noticeably (unless you are on a very marginal computer that constantly swaps everything in and out of virtual memory).
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Parisbre56

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #10456 on: April 26, 2014, 11:11:57 am »

I'm still saying early to mid June just because. My guts tell me that this version has bugs that will require that much and also the optimization part that is no small when you consider the dynamic and live world we are getting. Of course I hope it gets done earlier but whatever time it takes it's fine.
The worldgen machinery churns through game-centuries in a few minutes.  I don't think a daily or weekly "tick" in the world is going to slow down the game noticeably (unless you are on a very marginal computer that constantly swaps everything in and out of virtual memory).
Yes, but you have to consider that there are various levels of abstraction and different things get computed depending on where you are. Worldgen is the uppermost level of abstraction. As you get closer to your adventurer, more things are calculated, for example whether or not there is someone talking with the leader of the site or where the various patrols in it are. Of course, not all things that happen in worldgen happen in adventure/fort mode, but this is offset by the fact that they have to be computed in greater detail because you are there (EDIT: or rather, you have the potential to be there), witnessing those events unfold.
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Dirst

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #10457 on: April 26, 2014, 01:14:58 pm »

I'm still saying early to mid June just because. My guts tell me that this version has bugs that will require that much and also the optimization part that is no small when you consider the dynamic and live world we are getting. Of course I hope it gets done earlier but whatever time it takes it's fine.
The worldgen machinery churns through game-centuries in a few minutes.  I don't think a daily or weekly "tick" in the world is going to slow down the game noticeably (unless you are on a very marginal computer that constantly swaps everything in and out of virtual memory).
Yes, but you have to consider that there are various levels of abstraction and different things get computed depending on where you are. Worldgen is the uppermost level of abstraction. As you get closer to your adventurer, more things are calculated, for example whether or not there is someone talking with the leader of the site or where the various patrols in it are. Of course, not all things that happen in worldgen happen in adventure/fort mode, but this is offset by the fact that they have to be computed in greater detail because you are there (EDIT: or rather, you have the potential to be there), witnessing those events unfold.
I understand that there are rings of abstraction around an adventurer or fortress.  What I meant was that changing purely static areas into worldgen-level-abstract areas shouldn't tax the computer too much.  Although having a thing cross an abstraction layer boundary is obviously nontrivial, this already happens in adventure mode.  My guess is that making abstraction layer changes happen in fortress mode is the challenge.

Edit: Meant "shouldn't" not "should".  I hate those typos that change the meaning of the sentence.
« Last Edit: April 26, 2014, 01:33:18 pm by Dirst »
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Putnam

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #10458 on: April 26, 2014, 01:17:44 pm »

Worldgen abstraction takes 20 seconds for an entire year when the world is very active and the world is large. 20 seconds over an FPS-limited hour and 7 minutes is barely noticeable at all.

Putnam

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #10459 on: April 26, 2014, 01:24:14 pm »

Quote
a side effect of this was that the "material reaction product" stuff you might be familiar with from modding now also has a similar tag to send over an item type with the material, so a single reaction can produce different item types depending on the incoming reagent's material. I'm not sure how useful that is overall, but it could cut down on some clutter.

Is the syntax for that final enough to release it (the syntax, that is)? And if so... can you?

Guylock

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #10460 on: April 27, 2014, 02:41:04 pm »

I look forward to this.
I always like games like this that are alive. :D
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Mesa

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #10461 on: April 28, 2014, 07:53:56 am »

Now that you're (technically) finished with the release (as of this post, at any rate), what's the new version number going to be? 0.38? 0.40?
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LordBaal

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #10462 on: April 28, 2014, 08:33:48 am »

It's time to..


Do you have any plans on making a world editor sometime? Or do you use one already? I mean not only shape the world but also add characters, religions, monsters, lairs, factions, kings, towers, castles, forests... etc? Something that allows you to lay down a world the exact way you want to, down to names, ages, genders and everything, and for example, make a start scenario from any part of a Lord of The Rings book/movie?
« Last Edit: April 28, 2014, 08:38:25 am by LordBaal »
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Dirst

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #10463 on: April 28, 2014, 08:57:50 am »

Do you have any plans on making a world editor sometime? Or do you use one already? I mean not only shape the world but also add characters, religions, monsters, lairs, factions, kings, towers, castles, forests... etc? Something that allows you to lay down a world the exact way you want to, down to names, ages, genders and everything, and for example, make a start scenario from any part of a Lord of The Rings book/movie?
These feature is already in the game.  All you need to do is re-gen your world enough times, and you'll get exactly what you were looking for.  The state-space for DF is on the large side, so it might take a while.  :P
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LordBaal

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #10464 on: April 28, 2014, 09:01:14 am »

:P hahaha

I ask because it could be interesting to recreate for example, an start scenario from Warhammer Fantasy Battles and play as either an adventurer or a dwarf fort.
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I'm curious as to how a tank would evolve. Would it climb out of the primordial ooze wiggling it's track-nubs, feeding on smaller jeeps before crawling onto the shore having evolved proper treds?
My ship exploded midflight, but all the shrapnel totally landed on Alpha Centauri before anyone else did.  Bow before me world leaders!

Knight Otu

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #10465 on: April 28, 2014, 09:05:00 am »

Do you have any plans on making a world editor sometime? Or do you use one already? I mean not only shape the world but also add characters, religions, monsters, lairs, factions, kings, towers, castles, forests... etc? Something that allows you to lay down a world the exact way you want to, down to names, ages, genders and everything, and for example, make a start scenario from any part of a Lord of The Rings book/movie?
That's Future Future material:
Quote
EDITORS: Draw your own region maps, create your own towns, creatures, items, start situations, etc. For example, you could create Earth at various time periods (or an amalgamation of various time periods).

Quote
Toady:   Yeah, yeah. Then you'd be able to ... you could recruit half of them or whatever, and then you'd have this really interesting party of people that you understood and that the game understood how you understood, to some extent; it'd be awesome. That kind of thing would mix nicely with a world editor or whatever, just being able to create the kind of characters that you want, for people that want to reenact their favorite book or whatever, when we get to that. Because I mean it's the kind of thing that's just kind of sitting there waiting to be done, right? A site map editor or a world map editor that's better than the one we've got, and the reason I haven't done that or I haven't moved towards that at all is because I'm not sure what the character editor would be like or things like that, putting together the world that way; and because the world's changing so much it would just kind of be another anchor on the game making it slower to develop because you'd have to go back and look at the editor. But we're going to reach a certain point, when we start thinking about things like this, where it becomes very natural to add an editor that would already be tied into the intent of retirement, so it wouldn't actually be an anchor on the game because I'd have to change it anyway. If the editors ... Right now there's a name editor for naming your fortress and so that name editor always has to be kept up to date anyway, so that name editor can be used in the editing, in the actual world editing, so there's no loss there in terms of having a world editor. But the characters are different, like having a historical figure editor right now is a pretty heavy cost, but it wouldn't necessarily be, anyway.
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smjjames

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #10466 on: April 28, 2014, 09:05:39 am »

Given how complex and interconnected the historical part is, I don't see such an editor for that being feaseable.
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Knight Otu

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #10467 on: April 28, 2014, 09:13:57 am »

Given how complex and interconnected the historical part is, I don't see such an editor for that being feaseable.
It would definitely be tough. At the very least, it'd need some kind of auto-complete for things you didn't touch.
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LordBaal

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #10468 on: April 28, 2014, 09:15:16 am »

It its complex because of world gen I think. I sense that starting scenarios, no matter how complex you make them, will pale in detail and complexity over procedurally/naturally made by the game, unless you spend a lot of time or somehow a lot of people work on it.

If you think about it, for the basics you don't need "all that much". Things like a world and local map editor seems fairly easy to do (now, to do them fool proof it's another thing). Next would be being able to create civilizations, factions and their respective characteristics and stances against each other (including assigning places/local maps/areas/regions to them) and lastly being able to create nobles, family trees and other special characters would allow you to outline almost any scenario you could think off.

Now, being able to write the history behind all that could be "easy" but bothersome, probably you would need to create whole lines of characters and depict their actions and how they killed/helped/conquered/fathered each other and so on. I mean, it could be just text if you want to, because "getting there" the old way would be simply impossible.

Dunno, I'm just bored and hyped.
« Last Edit: April 28, 2014, 09:18:54 am by LordBaal »
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I'm curious as to how a tank would evolve. Would it climb out of the primordial ooze wiggling it's track-nubs, feeding on smaller jeeps before crawling onto the shore having evolved proper treds?
My ship exploded midflight, but all the shrapnel totally landed on Alpha Centauri before anyone else did.  Bow before me world leaders!

Dirst

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #10469 on: April 28, 2014, 10:25:22 am »

It its complex because of world gen I think. I sense that starting scenarios, no matter how complex you make them, will pale in detail and complexity over procedurally/naturally made by the game, unless you spend a lot of time or somehow a lot of people work on it.

If you think about it, for the basics you don't need "all that much". Things like a world and local map editor seems fairly easy to do (now, to do them fool proof it's another thing). Next would be being able to create civilizations, factions and their respective characteristics and stances against each other (including assigning places/local maps/areas/regions to them) and lastly being able to create nobles, family trees and other special characters would allow you to outline almost any scenario you could think off.

Now, being able to write the history behind all that could be "easy" but bothersome, probably you would need to create whole lines of characters and depict their actions and how they killed/helped/conquered/fathered each other and so on. I mean, it could be just text if you want to, because "getting there" the old way would be simply impossible.

Dunno, I'm just bored and hyped.
Yeah, I think doing worldgen by hand is a bit tedious.  But it should be possible to set up the initial stuff and let the world spin.  It might even be possible to put constraints on the worldgen (Human Civ England and Human Civ France at war >=25% of time, >3 Elf Civs in year 100, >2 Elf Civs in year 500, etc.) but that would have dependencies on all the same things as the editor, so it will be a long way off.
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