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Author Topic: Future of the Fortress  (Read 2664643 times)

MrWiggles

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #1800 on: May 03, 2012, 03:51:37 am »

I'm disappointed with the mining changes. I was expecting at least:

1)Heavy boulders too heavy for a dwarf to carry
2)Clutter in the floor slowing down movement

Mining skill should determine the amount of boulders a miner generates. Less skilled miners would generate smaller (with less volume) 4-5 boulders (maybe with some loss in mass), while skilled miners would more likely have success in mining full, single boulders. Of course, the industry of rock crafts and furniture and smelting would have to change for this to be fruitful. (Smaller boulders couldn't be made into statues, the loss of volume in ores would impact the amount of metal, etc).

As it is, I may as well just "h"ide the rocks, and use the minecarts only when I am bored, or as death traps.
These probably aren't the full spectrum of initially planned changes or total number of changes for mining this release. Toady seems to feel he's under a time crunch to get this release out. His open stated goal is this month.

Though it does seem that Toady & ThreeToes have looked at rubble, and decided, at least for now, not to include it in the game.
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DG

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #1801 on: May 03, 2012, 06:37:15 am »

It seems to me that Toady has to navigate between the diametrically opposed desires of people who want mining that is more realistic (ie what you dig you need to move, and most of what you dig is waste and mining tiles themselves taking much longer) and people who don't want mining to intrude on their current gameplay more than it already does. It won't be easy (impossible?) to make everyone happy. And the same people asking for certain features may be the ones asking for them to be changed back once they realize it's not fun. That's why they're putting a lot of thought into it, on top of all the thought already put in over the years I'm sure.
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Mr S

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #1802 on: May 03, 2012, 07:46:50 am »

Perhaps I'm interperreting the comments a bit differently, but I had first read Toady's comment about dropping the mining rates as dropping the issue for now.  That would mean suspending any changes to the mining skill to material produced action item until some future development phase.  Could be I'm looking at it wrong.
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thvaz

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #1803 on: May 03, 2012, 07:58:45 am »

It seems to me that Toady has to navigate between the diametrically opposed desires of people who want mining that is more realistic (ie what you dig you need to move, and most of what you dig is waste and mining tiles themselves taking much longer) and people who don't want mining to intrude on their current gameplay more than it already does. It won't be easy (impossible?) to make everyone happy. And the same people asking for certain features may be the ones asking for them to be changed back once they realize it's not fun. That's why they're putting a lot of thought into it, on top of all the thought already put in over the years I'm sure.

Well, I can speak for me: while certainly what I desire would make the game more fun for me and less for others , I wouldn't never ask to change it back.

But I do agree that what I asked would take a long time (ore boulders smelted into bar relative to their mass for example)
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MrWiggles

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #1804 on: May 03, 2012, 08:00:39 am »

Perhaps I'm interperreting the comments a bit differently, but I had first read Toady's comment about dropping the mining rates as dropping the issue for now.  That would mean suspending any changes to the mining skill to material produced action item until some future development phase.  Could be I'm looking at it wrong.

Quote from: Dev Log
...I've dropped skill-based mining drop rates for the time being. ...

No, I dont think this means that he's dropped the issue. I think it means that skilled-based mining drop rates have been lowered.

I think our issue is that we don't know what 'skill-based mining drop rates' mean. I think we think it means, he's talking about the rocks that miners produce then as they mine. Which in turns mean that even skillless miners will be producing rock spam.

Quote from: Dev Log
...I'm not sure there will be other mining changes for this release. ...
Though this bit does mean, that we've probably been told the brunt of the mining changes.
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cephalo

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #1805 on: May 03, 2012, 09:06:06 am »

Since 99 percent of mining is not to gain materials, but mainly to create rooms, I would hate to have to search through my dwarves to find the least skilled miner just so I don't have to haul rocks for generations. Then you have to pay attention to whos generating too many rocks etc. No thanks.
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Jerricho

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #1806 on: May 03, 2012, 09:12:34 am »

What if the options to quarry and to mine were seperate? Quarrying would be with the intention of generating useable stone. Mining would be to supply metals and to clear rooms.
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cephalo

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #1807 on: May 03, 2012, 10:45:51 am »

What if the options to quarry and to mine were seperate? Quarrying would be with the intention of generating useable stone. Mining would be to supply metals and to clear rooms.

Well, it makes sense, especially for DF which generally abstracts things less than other games, that you should have to remove the debris that you dig out. It's also nice that this debris has a variety of uses. I could easily see a scenario where you need alot more stone than you thought you did, like for training certain skills. It's good to have stone lying around so you can have a good long while to decide what to do with it.

I have gotten into the habit lately of destroying extra stone with DFHack, and I've regretted it a few times. I think the minecarts solve the problem nicely in a way that suits DF. I think mining should stay the same in terms of drop rates.
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Jerricho

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #1808 on: May 03, 2012, 11:00:11 am »

Quote
Well, it makes sense, especially for DF which generally abstracts things less than other games, that you should have to remove the debris that you dig out.

It doesn't necessarily need to be so clear cut. Arguably, quarrying useful stone is a skill in itself. Just chipping stone out of the way to get at something particular is going to leave you with useless rubble as a waste material for the most part.

I would suggest that to quarry would really be a careful version of mining. It would produce more useable rock where as mining will be quicker but produce rubble, i.e. less useable rock but the same amount of metals.

« Last Edit: May 03, 2012, 11:01:47 am by Jerricho »
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blue sam3

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #1809 on: May 03, 2012, 11:37:59 am »

As regards the reduction in mining drop rates:

Will legendary miners still have a 100% drop rate, or will this be reduced too? Could we have some rough numbers?
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monk12

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #1810 on: May 03, 2012, 11:45:35 am »

Hmm...

After reading and re-reading the devlog, the wording is still ambiguous to me:
Quote from: devlog 05/02/2012
I've dropped skill-based mining drop rates for the time being.

Does this mean he's removed the feature of skill affecting drop rates, or that he lowered the drop rates?  It sounds more like the first one, but I'm not really sure what the motivation for doing that would be.  It is certainly a change, but I don't see how it is a benefit.  It isn't a disaster either, but it just seems like a change with no strong benefits or drawbacks.  There is probably something clever to do with drop rates, like having some way to toggle if dwarves are trying to mine out stone or trying to hollow out a region, but if that's going to delay the release, why bother changing anything at all? 

Toady, could you clarify the above quote's meaning?  Also, what is the motivation for this change?

Maybe there's some super obvious benefit that's just going over my head here?

Given the many interpretations floating around, I think I'll ask the more direct question.

When you say "dropped skill-based mining drop rates," does that mean you've lowered the rate at which stone drops when mined, or that you've eliminated the effect skill has on mining drop rates?

I had thought it was the latter, with the intent to remove rock spam from legendary miners, but you can certainly read it the other way.

Untelligent

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #1811 on: May 03, 2012, 12:03:33 pm »

I interpreted it as that miners in general will produce less rock (all mining drops are skill-based, as far as I know, so he just dropped the drop rates), but I agree that it would help if Toady clarified what he meant by that.
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TSTwizby

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #1812 on: May 03, 2012, 12:04:47 pm »

Since 99 percent of mining is not to gain materials, but mainly to create rooms, I would hate to have to search through my dwarves to find the least skilled miner just so I don't have to haul rocks for generations. Then you have to pay attention to whos generating too many rocks etc. No thanks.

Honestly I'd have to say that more than half of my mining these days is done to gather raw materials for various megaprojects.

I would hate it if most of the time mining didn't generate rock. Sure, housekeeping gets a bit easier, but any kind of metalwork or large construction would become very difficult to next to impossible, depending on how much the rate were reduced by.
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NW_Kohaku

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #1813 on: May 03, 2012, 12:20:03 pm »

I too have a question, although a more broad one related to your outlook on the game in general...

Quote
I don't yet see a way to make something like rubble or different sizes of rocks a net positive for the game, so I'm just going to stick with the larger intermittent boulders for now to keep things moving.

When you say "net positive", what do you consider the positives and the negatives of various rubble and stone sizes?

Is it, as DG hinted, that you would like to make mining slower and more complex by making players have to clear rubble so that mining huge patches isn't easy, and see such complexity as a positive, but that you are both worried about player backlash over a change in the system and that the game lags when more items are added into the game?

Or is it, alternately, that you see slowing down player mining in general as a negative to be avoided, and merely that giving mine carts a use was the positive?
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greenskye

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #1814 on: May 03, 2012, 01:10:42 pm »

-snip-

Honestly I'd have to say that more than half of my mining these days is done to gather raw materials for various megaprojects.

I would hate it if most of the time mining didn't generate rock. Sure, housekeeping gets a bit easier, but any kind of metalwork or large construction would become very difficult to next to impossible, depending on how much the rate were reduced by.

I also have to agree. Maybe it's just because most of my forts don't last long enough to generate truly astronomical amounts of rock, but I would prefer the way it is now. I wanted an easier way to manage the rock that is currently generated. If not much is generated in the first place, then I won't need minecarts quite as badly.

I don't really mind if mining gets more complex, but they are living underground... lack of stone should never really be an issue in my opinion. But honestly I feel like an entire mining overhaul could constitute an arc to itself. There have been a lot of neat suggestions on how to make mining more complex and meaningful, but most of those would require months of work. Toady doesn't like to do things halfway, so I doubt he's going to change very much right now.
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