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Author Topic: Future of the Fortress  (Read 3743856 times)

Blue-Demon

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #15 on: February 15, 2012, 07:34:51 am »

Should we expect something that undoes curses or some form of protection against them aside from fun abstinence?
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Torchy

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Re: Future of the Fortress - Kobolds Still Starving
« Reply #16 on: February 15, 2012, 07:41:19 am »

Goblins have [NO_EAT] and [NO_DRINK] for thematic reasons. Kobolds don't get them because they're thematically different. Hopefully they'll make it to play time more often after the bugfix releases.

At the time Toady put the tags on, I'm pretty sure he described it as a "temporary solution". Goblins were originally BONECARN like kobolds, or at least CARNIVORE, weren't they? "Thematically", I only remember that they weren't supposed to be able to farm.
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Rose

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #17 on: February 15, 2012, 07:48:49 am »

Are adventurers-turned-vampire meant to be friendly towards raised dead?
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Areyar

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #18 on: February 15, 2012, 07:57:18 am »

I've encountered Kobolds in a camp raid in adventurer and the year is someplace near 250, so either they do survive more often or they are spawned as bogeymen are.
I did get murdered three times by mummies (human) that had died of hunger (one was a farmer even!).
Apparently starvation is a very common event . . . even when all the world is covered with farmsteads.

Are skins supposed to die of bloodloss each time they are animated?
I wonder whether they would attempt to strangle or suffocate if they survived longer.
« Last Edit: February 15, 2012, 08:55:49 am by Areyar »
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tfaal

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Re: Future of the Fortress - Kobolds Still Starving
« Reply #19 on: February 15, 2012, 09:14:32 am »

Goblins have [NO_EAT] and [NO_DRINK] for thematic reasons. Kobolds don't get them because they're thematically different. Hopefully they'll make it to play time more often after the bugfix releases.

At the time Toady put the tags on, I'm pretty sure he described it as a "temporary solution". Goblins were originally BONECARN like kobolds, or at least CARNIVORE, weren't they? "Thematically", I only remember that they weren't supposed to be able to farm.

I can't recall the exact quote, but Toady wants them to stay foodless; he says farming goblins wouldn't fit the theme, and said much the same thing of fixed or nomadic herding goblins. So they're meant to have [NO_EAT] for the foreseeable future.
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Neonivek

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #20 on: February 15, 2012, 09:36:06 am »

Toady wants it so Goblins CAN eat and perhaps enjoy it... but not so much that they need to eat and thus make farms. As having meat farms is something he cannot view goblins as doing.

It isn't a point of view I agree with but one I can more then live with.

Mind you I think it is because Toady more and more wants the goblins to be more like monsters rather then an outright humanoid race like Elves, dwarves, and even Kobolds are.
« Last Edit: February 15, 2012, 09:53:07 am by Neonivek »
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Blue-Demon

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #21 on: February 15, 2012, 10:17:53 am »

Toady wants it so Goblins CAN eat and perhaps enjoy it... but not so much that they need to eat and thus make farms. As having meat farms is something he cannot view goblins as doing.

It isn't a point of view I agree with but one I can more then live with.

Mind you I think it is because Toady more and more wants the goblins to be more like monsters rather then an outright humanoid race like Elves, dwarves, and even Kobolds are.

In my opinion adding a code that makes the goblins raid for there food source can be a solution. That way they can still eat and they don't have to make a farm. As with DF they have the alignment of evil and attack your fortress early on in game. Which brings me to another question.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goblin

Should we expect races to have some form of link to magic in future releases?
ex dwarf enchanting and/or enhancing weapons and armor with materials. different then elf who might simply use runes. 


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Footkerchief

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #22 on: February 15, 2012, 11:16:47 am »

I have a quest to go to a mountain hall and kill a dwarven werebeast. Is this currently possible? If not, are such quests a bug?

It'd be helpful if you could confirm that the quest location is empty of creatures (and the target in particular).  If so, it's a bug and deserves a report on the bug tracker.

Toady, something I'm sure you're aware of is how the Kobolds have been starving to death en masse and mostly extincting very early in worldgen ever since the prior update where worldgen food needs became respected. A lot of people have gotten around this by adding the [NO_EAT] and [NO_DRINK] to them, and because this is the solution you used to avoid the same thing happening with Goblins, I figured its omission from the Kobold raws was an oversight to be fixed in the long update. Now that it's launched, I see the Kobolds once again dying off of starvation - albeit, in 27 or 33 now instead of in 4, but they're still very much gone. I'm betting that the slightly longer survival is an accidental product of how worldgen has changed, and not an intentional attempt to make the Kobs more survivable.

Given how straightforward it is to fix the problem with the [NO_EAT] / [NO_DRINK] tags, the fact that you've clearly been willing to apply that fix before with Goblins, and the near-universality of Kobold doom without it, should we assume there's another reason you haven't made the Kobolds inediate for the time being? If not - and I apologize if this falls into suggestion territory - will the issue be considered a bug to be stamped out in the forthcoming bugfix releases by adding the tags?


Toady did do some work for this release on making kobolds "more survivable in world gen."  He notably did not add NO_EAT at that time.  Kobolds are treated differently from goblins in this regard.

Goblins have [NO_EAT] and [NO_DRINK] for thematic reasons. Kobolds don't get them because they're thematically different. Hopefully they'll make it to play time more often after the bugfix releases.

At the time Toady put the tags on, I'm pretty sure he described it as a "temporary solution". Goblins were originally BONECARN like kobolds, or at least CARNIVORE, weren't they? "Thematically", I only remember that they weren't supposed to be able to farm.

It's not temporary:
Quote from: Toady One
Quote from: Neonivek
Toady do you mean Goblins don't need to eat in any future update or that Goblins won't need to eat until you can get it working properly?
Quote from: Mephansteras
Toady: Could you clairify a bit on the "Goblins don't need to eat" bit? Just curious how that's going to play out and what the reasoning behind it is (from a world lore perspective). Also, even if goblins don't eat what about any other future carnivorous civs? Wolfmen or the like? Do you see yourself adding in herding-based civilizations to accommodate that? Even in our history we have examples of very successful civilizations that did very little actual farming and mostly just herded animals around. The Mongols are probably the best example of that.

In any future update.  I know a few people were dismissive of our decision and called it a cop out, but we thought about these situations (including the Mongols) and rejected them.  Goblins that herd meat animals are insufficiently scary to us.  Goblins that die exclusively violent deaths in great numbers in a potentially vegetationless wasteland are better, and we want to explore a wider variety of possibilities than humans allow -- humans can be Mongols, because the Mongols were human, and we hope to support some human variety eventually.  There are beak dog considerations, etc., but those aren't fundamental -- wrangling some critters isn't as image-shattering as having large herds of meat animals ranging over grasslands with goblin ranchers.

Are adventurers-turned-vampire meant to be friendly towards raised dead?

There's a bug report about zombie loyalty issues.

Should we expect races to have some form of link to magic in future releases?
ex dwarf enchanting and/or enhancing weapons and armor with materials. different then elf who might simply use runes. 


This is pretty much the future of artifacts:
Quote from: dev_single
# Core80, ARTIFACT MAGIC, (Future): An early angle on magic that should find its way into the game. Although ultimately influenced by world parameters, stock DF will likely focus on rare, unique, somewhat mysterious effects without tables, to the extent that that's possible. Some cliches are probably unavoidable, he he he. The artifact process is likely to be changed somewhat to align with this, and artifacts should be created in world-generation and elsewhere during play, though a good player artifact should still have high importance.
« Last Edit: February 15, 2012, 11:23:15 am by Footkerchief »
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darkflagrance

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #23 on: February 15, 2012, 11:58:43 am »

I remember in 40d many historical figures led the squads that besieged your fort other than the leader of the enemy civilization, so an old fort would end up killing swathes of historical figures. However, it appears to me that the new enemies are mostly generated from the entity population pools.

Now that historical migrants arrive, will we also (someday) see squads of historical enemies where even the common troops are historical figures and not just the squad leader?
« Last Edit: February 15, 2012, 04:41:54 pm by darkflagrance »
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...as if nothing really matters...
   
The Legend of Tholtig Cryptbrain: 8000 dead elves and a cyclops

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Neonivek

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #24 on: February 15, 2012, 12:06:09 pm »

Hmmm does anyone remember that list of animals arranged by lifespan?

I am thinking of using it in a suggestion hmmm... Especially since I just noticed something I found rather odd.
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EmeraldWind

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #25 on: February 15, 2012, 12:38:48 pm »

I ran across an empty fort while looking for potential recruits. I sadly walked around the cavy infested fort (with one very happy barn owl) and went to the keep.

The keep had stairs and some statues. Neat, I thought. I looked at the statues. Then I followed the stairs and was greeted by a room fill with armor! WOW! Thanks for adding that to the game! Even exploring abandoned forts has its rewards now.
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JasonMel

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #26 on: February 15, 2012, 01:33:40 pm »

Should we expect races to have some form of link to magic in future releases?
ex dwarf enchanting and/or enhancing weapons and armor with materials. different then elf who might simply use runes. 


This is pretty much the future of artifacts:
Quote from: dev_single
# Core80, ARTIFACT MAGIC, (Future): An early angle on magic that should find its way into the game. Although ultimately influenced by world parameters, stock DF will likely focus on rare, unique, somewhat mysterious effects without tables, to the extent that that's possible. Some cliches are probably unavoidable, he he he. The artifact process is likely to be changed somewhat to align with this, and artifacts should be created in world-generation and elsewhere during play, though a good player artifact should still have high importance.

If you're interested, this is an excellent discussion of artifacts and magic from Feb 22, 2010, which I stumbled upon recently, in audio form:
http://www.bay12games.com/media/df_7_missing_segment.mp3
« Last Edit: February 15, 2012, 01:35:34 pm by JasonMel »
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Areyar

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #27 on: February 15, 2012, 02:03:50 pm »

Toady wants it so Goblins CAN eat and perhaps enjoy it... but not so much that they need to eat and thus make farms. As having meat farms is something he cannot view goblins as doing.
This gave me a mental image of obese goblins. (because they don't need to eat, but like to)
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Neonivek

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #28 on: February 15, 2012, 02:35:35 pm »

Toady wants it so Goblins CAN eat and perhaps enjoy it... but not so much that they need to eat and thus make farms. As having meat farms is something he cannot view goblins as doing.
This gave me a mental image of obese goblins. (because they don't need to eat, but like to)

I could picture that.
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Dae

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #29 on: February 15, 2012, 03:25:25 pm »

If they don't need to eat, fat wouldn't have a purpose in their body... Do they like to be fat ?
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