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Author Topic: Future of the Fortress  (Read 1076163 times)

Jervill

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #1710 on: April 30, 2012, 03:50:01 pm »

Considering they're dwarven pirates, they would take a break just when the plundering should start and end up failing epically.
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TempAcc

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #1711 on: April 30, 2012, 03:56:44 pm »

I dream of the day I'll be able to build a complex array involving ballistae and walls moving and turning with the use of mechanisms, axles and rails, powered by many waterwheels, controlled by a single dwarf in a room full of levers while he observes the whole thing behind fortifications atop a tower.
In fact, anything that improves the usefulness of mechanics is a huge plus for me.
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bombzero

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #1712 on: April 30, 2012, 04:18:17 pm »

Sometimes i just cant resist, heres a 5 minute sketch TempAcc.
Spoiler: DwarvenGatlingGun (click to show/hide)
missing a few things you said, but hey, its my 5 minute sketch for the day.

Anyways, these new hauling and stockpile changes are gonna alleviate alot of the headaches of fortress management present atm.
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TempAcc

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #1713 on: April 30, 2012, 04:23:37 pm »

Thats not really what I imagined, but your idea is much more awesome so it doesn't matter :o
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Farmerbob

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #1714 on: April 30, 2012, 05:57:55 pm »

I wonder if I'm only one who considers proper stockpiles/workshops relation graph implementation (w/out these silly restrictions on count or direction of links) even better than whole minecarts stuff?

On the surface, mine carts are cooler, but for the types of forts I tend to build, the stockpile updates are definitely going to have a greater effect.
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Farmerbob

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #1715 on: April 30, 2012, 06:00:49 pm »

I have to say, minecarts and hauling have been two of the most demanded changes to fortress mode for years. What's next? Dwarves who realize they're on fire? Lights?

Now that there are ramps into and out of natural water sources, perhaps burning dwarves will try to run for the closest water and jump in?
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Farmerbob

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #1716 on: April 30, 2012, 06:02:32 pm »

Zoning a pond would work too instead of a water stockpile.

Adds new zone:  Stop Drop and Roll Pond
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Kadzar

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #1717 on: April 30, 2012, 06:09:42 pm »

I have to say, minecarts and hauling have been two of the most demanded changes to fortress mode for years. What's next? Dwarves who realize they're on fire? Lights?

Now that there are ramps into and out of natural water sources, perhaps burning dwarves will try to run for the closest water and jump in?
Then setting Dwarves on fire might be a good way to train them in swimming?
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Elone

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #1718 on: April 30, 2012, 11:31:54 pm »

I'm just a little disappointed that it doesn't appear as if stacking will become a part of this update.

Fully agreed.
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Toady One

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #1719 on: May 01, 2012, 04:08:08 am »

Thanks to Footkerchief, dreiche2, Putnam, Greiger, MrWiggles, trees, Himmelblau, and anybody I missed for helping with questions not included below.

Quote from: ag
I wonder if there will be some way to construct a sorting yard, i.e. a reasonably compact area which accepts carts from multiple incoming lines, and dispatches to multiple outgoing ones based on their contents (or potentially some kind of a travel plan assigned at the source point) by the manual labor of a shunter dwarf?

Aside from weight, I don't think so (though you all are better at this stuff than I am).  We'll be able to add more conditions and so on as things come up.  It wouldn't be too much work to add a sort of advanced condition setting to a given stop, but handling a bunch of vehicles on the same line is a larger issue we haven't tackled at all.

Quote from: Cobaldunderpants
What effect, if any, will craft quality have on a minecart? Will a mastercraft minecart move faster/carry more/hit harder? Will a dwarf pushing a high quality minecart get a happy thought from it?

It doesn't matter at all right now.

Quote from: Quatch
(regarding track designation size) Is N limited to a small number?

You can designate across the entire map as long as it is a vertical or horizontal line.

Quote from: jimi12
What happens to the contents of a cart when a cart crashes? Would they be flung all over the place or would they stay inside the cart? Would this be different if the contents were 15 shoes or a dwarf? Also, do carts take damage after wrecks and collisions? Will it be possible to repair damaged carts?

Nothing happens at this point.

Quote from: dhoovr
What items will be required in the construction of a "roller?"

It takes a mechanism for every 4 tiles and 1 rope/chain overall.

Quote from: Arkenstone
What would happen if a moving cart hits a roller pointing perpendicular to its pathway?  Does it aquire a diagonal velocity? Does it just slow down, possibly turning if it's slow enough?  Does it instantly stop moving foreward to go in the new direction? Does it just derail then and there?

I haven't tried it, but I think it'll go diagonal and end up off the track.

Quote from: Elone
Can we set the rollers to use a particular force? Just like we can set a variable weight sensitivity to pressure plates?

Not at this point.  That might change.

Quote from: Cobbler89
Will it ever be important to see carts or anything else fly in parabolae? 3d visualizers are cool utilities, but part of what makes DF different from Minecraft or Real-Time Strategy is the ASCII graphics (or primitive substitute of the same layout).

Can minecarts crash into the ceiling if sent rapidly off a ramp in a cave only one storey high (at any given point; obviously above and below the ramp the ceiling is a level higher/lower just as the floor is)?

Do you mean being able to see the whole path at once?  It'll matter the most for adventure projectiles and siege engines when we get to those, because of obstacles and things like that.  The overall annoyance is part of why I haven't started in on those yet.

They hit the ceiling but they'll recover if they land back on tracks.  That might not remain true depending on the nature of the collision.

Quote from: i2amroy
Will we be able to have 1-way stops? So could you have a stop that allowed carts coming from 1 direction to shoot through without being stopped or slowed, but carts from another to be stopped and need to be started again? (Potentially in a different direction?)

The track stop construction applies friction no matter what.  A designated stop on a route with a dwarf guiding the cart can stop it one way and not the other.

Quote
Quote from: Areyar
- Could track-tiles be made unfavourable for pathing dwarves by default?
Quote from: Jiri Petru
Toady, could you please make tracks to be automatically designated as a low traffic zone? (So we don't have to do it manually).

Yeah, it'll set the traffic setting for you.

Quote from: Arkenstone
What symbols are you thinking of using for rollers and stops?

Will carts 'bounce' off dead-ends at walls, or will they just stop?

Rollers go between single and double lines perpendicular to the movement direction.  Stops are an inverted triple line.

They just stop.

Quote from: Keldane
If buildings can be placed on tracks, does that mean you can designate stockpiles on tracks? If so, what happens to the items on the track when a minecart barrels through?

It doesn't care about items in the track.  I'm not sure it ever will, since that might get too annoying to care for.

Quote from: GreatWyrmGold
how much have you found that these tracks affect your fortress design? Everyone seems to be assuming that it's a huge change, comparable to the shift from 2D to 3D, but is it really? Or is pure dwarven muscle power still the simplest way to haul goods around?

I haven't had a chance to do more than test each of the features out, so I'm really not sure.  Now that we are to the mining changes, we might see dwarven muscle power rendered useless in some cases.

Quote from: kaypy
What happens if you set a cart to free-roll to its destination but it runs out of momentum? Does a dwarf go collect it (at the players orders or automatically)?

Yeah, a dwarf will grab it and move it to the next stop, as with the original track placement.

Quote from: Fault
if bridges can serve the same purpose as tracks, can they be used to redirect cart flow?

Yeah, some of the diagrams I've seen of this would work (where a retractable bridge is placed over a corner for example).

Quote
Quote from: Khym Chanur
How many barrels/bins can a single cart carry?
Quote from: G-Flex
To expand on this, in what terms is a cart's capacity expressed? Is it total volume of items carried, total mass of items carried, number of items, or something else?
Quote from: cephalo
How much stone can go in one cart? It's currently possible to put a whole mountain of stone into a single tile. Will it be possible to load a cart with so much material that it obliterates everything it touches even while moving slowly?

I'm going to homogenize the sizes once I get through the mining changes.  As it stands, way too many.  The conditions are based on % of volume taken up in the cart, but it's more or less just to have it sent along after a while if it is halfway full instead of waiting.  Numbers have the trickiness of bins and how that's interpreted, and mass is less reliable than volume since it depends on material.  Volume has the disadvantage of not being displayed anywhere, not being as game-related as the number and not being implemented consistently.  Hopefully I'll have the third part more or less sorted out before the release.

Quote from: blue sam3
What happens if a hauler loads & launches a cart with orders to ride on it if its route passes out of his/her burrow?

They won't take the job if the designated start and ending stops of the guide/ride aren't in the route.

Quote from: diefortheswarm
I assume the current system of powered rails and friction rails are just placeholders until improved mechanisms where they will be replaced with a proper mechanical system.  Am I correct in assuming this?

Is there any advantage to using wood or metal rails as opposed to carved rails other then being able to build on constructed floors.

I don't think rollers and track stops are utterly unreasonable.  New stuff will continue to be added, but I'm not sure these things will be replaced.  Like I said before, I'm not an engineer and don't have any knowledge of what would be proper.

It doesn't matter yet.  It'd either be that metal > wood > carved in the friction category, or something to do with maintenance.  Might not get to any of that this time.

Quote from: xmakina
I know the contents of cages become invulnerable, will this be true of mine carts? More specifically, if I drowned a magma safe cart in a pool of magma, will it set the contents on fire/melt them down?

It's the same as everything else right now.

Quote from: Jacob/Lee
Will it be possible to strap a POW into the cart against his/her/its will and send it down the tracks with the cart? I assume this job will require ropes or chains to prevent the prisoner from simply bailing and running off into the sunset.

We'd considered the ability to tie people up and place them places, since that comes up with tracks, but ended up not having done it up to this point.

Quote from: Chthonic
Will we be able to remove carved tracks?

Yeah, smoothing the floor removes them.

Quote from: Cobaldunderpants
Will we be able to designate specific carts for specific dwarves or will it only be a first come first served basis?

It works like a haul job right now, but there aren't specific settings aside from which dwarves have "haul vehicle" in which burrows.

Quote from: Arkenstone
Toady, could you verify these quickly please?
(http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=100851.msg3187116#msg3187116)

Parallel tracks can be adjacent.
Long tracks: there is no maximum, and you can join dead ends by carving over them.
Turns: yeah, you need to overlap.
T-junction: yeah, that's all correct as I understand it.

Quote from: Arkenstone
Under which of the following circumstances will a dwarf 'bail out' of a cart, if at all?
(list)

They'll leave when the cart stops, or if they dodge out of it.

Quote from: Gilihad
Will dwarves be able to shoot from minecarts? Your last post brought to mind that if squads can be activated mid-minecart ride, crossbow dwarves with ammo on them could be use for dwarven drive-by shootings. Would a squad unit jump out of the cart as soon as it was activated though? How does minecart interaction differ between haulers and military units (if at all)?

It's difficult to get an armed squad into a cart right now.  Nothing will stop them from shooting if you can manage to do it.  They won't jump out of the cart until it is safe.  In general, I haven't set up an interface to ride squads or random citizen groups around in carts.  The haulers can ride them, but it isn't a full passenger service.  That could happen at some point, but there are things to think through.

Quote
Quote from: hermes
What does a dwarf need to hitch a ride on a cart?  One grasp?  Two?  Legs?
Quote from: Stoup
Following up on this question, will paraplegic dwarves who cannot walk use minecarts to get around? Do you think this might lead into the future-planned mechanical augmentations?

I'm not sure about the injuries, but probably whatever a hauler needs.  There isn't any special AI associated to the carts for moving around injured passengers.

Quote from: Naryar
I would like to know if we will be able to fill a minecart with items, launch it down a ramp, and then throw it at goblins and expect the items in the minecart to spread, hit and possibly damage creatures, like the item was thrown ?

It doesn't do interesting things with the contents at this point, but that's something we thought we'd get to, around the time we resolve the liquid question.

Quote from: Tov01
Since you are allowing fort mode dwarves to ride carts, does that mean that adventurers will be able to ride carts too in this version, or soon after?

Yeah, you can jump in a cart and push it off in a direction, or just push it.

Quote
Quote from: Naryar
So how will falling in a minecart be implemented? Can a dwarf survive a 7 z-level fall unharmed because he was in a minecart ?
Quote from: NW_Kohaku
Does landing on a ramp mitigate fall damage or decrease the likelihood of projecting cart contents everywhere?  Can we make Dwarven Evel Knievel jumps, where launching from a ramp and landing on a ramp is a perfectly smooth landing and you can just keep going?

It's a safety happy area at this point.  I'm not sure where it'll be once items start coming out of carts.

Quote from: calrogman
What text editor do you prefer to use when developing/writing raws?

I just use note/wordpad, whatever doesn't mess up the formatting (which seems to depend on the file for me).

Quote from: MaximumZero
Will we be able to launch minecarts via the bridge-a-pult?

They will launch, but they won't be reliably directed (as usual).

Quote from: Tenebrais
If tracks will need to be laid out in lines, will constructed rails function tilewise like walls and floors, or will they work more like axles and bridges?

They are like constructed floors/ramps.

Quote from: Khym Chanur
If hauling rocks by hand is made harder now that minecarts are in, will hauling rocks on stairs going down be easier than going up?  Or will wheelbarrows be usable on stairs for hauling rocks?

I don't think there will be hard restrictions, since that messes with pathfinding.  It might take a long time to drag the wheelbarrow up the stairs though.  We're going to have to mess with it and see what works.

Quote from: Sizik
(regarding parabolas) Does this apply to units sent flying by weapon hits?

Yeah, though they pretty much fly straight back and possibly skid one or more times.

Quote from: Urist Da Vinci
Given that you are in this part of the code, is addressing this "sent flying" bug possible? http://www.bay12games.com/dwarves/mantisbt/view.php?id=344

The current state of things is that knockback is inconsistent between its various causes. A bronze colossus can throw a dwarf (using a wrestling move) ~192 tiles (and exploding him against a wall), whereas the colossus can only kick the dwarf back 2 tiles. The same colossus holding a platinum mace can only send a kea flying 2 tiles, and anything larger can't be sent flying at all with the mace.

There have been some changes here, of things I noticed when I was putting the arcs into combat, but I don't think it has all been fixed.

Quote
Quote from: SirPenguin
Reworking the catapults to fire with parabolic arcs - not to mention using the new impact code - feels like a real low hanging fruit at this point. Will any work be done to them?
Quote from: Misterstone
will the implementation of object collisions (with minecarts) also be used to update siege engine projectiles?  I mean, so that giant catapult boulders will send people flying or smash them into a pulp when they hit, instead of just bouncing off of their armor?

Nope.  It's the same roughly as the targeting in adventure mode, since they need to hit their targets.  When I feel like doing the targeting, I might end up doing both of those at once.

Quote from: Alu
What happens if a Minecart runs into a bronze golem or a giant?
Kinda curious if its also calculating in the mass of the colliding object.

also,
Will it be possible to transport magma/water in minecarts?

Yeah, the collision should not send a heavy unit flying.  The combat strike portion of it acts like combat.

Liquid transport is still up in the air.  They go into the cart, but they aren't dumpable and they won't continue to go into carts if we don't add some kind of dumping.  Adding dumping depends on time/side issues.

Quote from: flabort
Will we be able to hook animals to minecarts, and have them pull them along? Or have dwarves PULL (as opposed to push) minecarts at all?
Will we be able to put any items in minecarts? Possibly including live animals?
Will we be able to make splits in the tracks, and send carts in different directions?

There is no hooking animals and no pulling.

You can put whatever stockpile item in a cart.  That'll include animal cages.

With a lever?  You can do it with a retractable bridge, but we'd like something more proper at some point.

Quote from: Flaede
Will dodging minecarts train dodging?

Yeah.  It is a dodge roll vs. the speed of the cart, roughly.

Quote from: cephalo
Will a one tile wide tunnel prevent a cart from derailing?

Yeah.

Quote from: Sizik
What tile do minecarts use?

They use an inverted 254 block, I think.  It's settable in the tool raws.

Quote from: greenskye
What happens to a magma filled minecart that passes under a waterfall? Does the minecart break? If obsidian is formed, can it be removed from the minecart?

Nothing happens at this point.

Quote from: Farmerbob
Are there plans to attach pond filling to cart-available actions?

Put a loop of rail in to connect a cistern with a rail line running through it with a pond you want to keep full?  Allow the cart to move through the water to fill, then dump water in the pond?

Can this be implemented with Magma for Magma ponds? *grin*

I'm not sure how liquids are going to turn out.  If you can dump it in a direction once it presumably has a liquid from earlier in the route, that would work, but there's no such dumping order yet.

Quote from: Cobbler89
Will it be possible to water farms using minecarts via some kind of pond-like mechanism?

I haven't done anything with liquid dumping at this point.  It's one of the few remaining items to consider, and I'm not sure what's going to happen.

Quote from: Tov01
Can the mine carts be fully automated, or do you still need a dwarf to push the cart off the stop?

I'm not up on all the mechanical things people have been doing, but as it stands I don't think it would understand which stop you wanted the cart to be in if you kick the cart out by unconventional means.  I could have it try to guess based on where it ends up.  In general, you'd need some kind of timing mechanism to keep the cart at the designated stop for whatever period of time you want it to interact with its piles etc., and you'd need something to kick it out.  You could either tune the friction well before the roller it stops on, or use a normal stop and a second cart to boot it and then roll it out of the way or something.  Or have it stop on ramps down blocked by gates until you power it back to the top.  Lots of ways I guess, but not much support from the hauling stops to let it know what it should be doing.

Quote from: Shinotsa
Now that site continuation after worldgen is being considered, could we get a glimpse into your thoughts on how you are going to implement it? Are you considering something involving an actual continuation of worldgen where cities can expand their walls and wars are waged, or something simpler like checking population, available jobs, need for food, etc. and then recalculating population and goods every year?

We'd eventually like to get everything from world gen and more going on in play, but it'll be an incremental process.  The remaining caravan arc releases are in part an expansion in play of the simple trades going on in world gen, and the army stuff is similar.

Quote from: cephalo
Are there cases where a busy dwarf will be considered a better job recipient than an idle dwarf? How have you handled this so far?

It doesn't do anything with that.  There are plenty of times when job poaching etc. would be a good idea, but it's probably mostly a hard problem.  I haven't thought about it much.
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Japa

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #1720 on: May 01, 2012, 05:04:34 am »

Regarding liquids, I could see a specialized liquid dumping building working, where any minecart that goes over it will dump all of it's liquid contents out. I don't know how that will mesh with what you have already, but it would probably satisfy most uses people would have for hauling liquids in carts.

wait, we already have such a building. just have pumps take from a cart in the input square.
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10ebbor10

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #1721 on: May 01, 2012, 05:41:09 am »

Regarding liquids, I could see a specialized liquid dumping building working, where any minecart that goes over it will dump all of it's liquid contents out. I don't know how that will mesh with what you have already, but it would probably satisfy most uses people would have for hauling liquids in carts.

wait, we already have such a building. just have pumps take from a cart in the input square.
That or just have the ability to designate tilted rails which would cause carts to dump all their contents in a designated direction unless they are manned/ going faster then a certain (usercontrollable) speed. This would allow to automate cart emptying too.

Pump taking liquids out of carts seems good too.
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dhoovr

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #1722 on: May 01, 2012, 07:07:31 am »

Spoiler (click to show/hide)
I feel like that should only be possible with a pump operator. Based on the archimedes screw pump design, unless you have fairly advanced machinery to where you can lift the pump then place it in the cart automatically it would just run into the pump. I could see adding the new job to the pump "pump from minecart" which would only be effective if there is a minecart on the tile below the pumping end where the liquid goes.
One could utilize the stacking feature to have the job on repeat and some sort a mechanism that send the cart on its way when it empty so that the carts stacked on top fall down into the spot.
Or since pumping jobs continue even with lack a pump-able material and thus don't need to be set on repeat (as they produce no product and take no product) they would just pump out of the cart when it arrives. This could utilize the conservation of momentum feature to send them away via new carts coming in. Like a crude digestive system.

That or just treat them like giant buckets to be dumped in a specialized pond. But I like things functioning more like an industry than an odd job.
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FearfulJesuit

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #1723 on: May 01, 2012, 07:31:09 am »

What's an inverted 254 block look like?
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Japa

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #1724 on: May 01, 2012, 07:36:56 am »

This:
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