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Author Topic: Future of the Fortress  (Read 2364394 times)

Valtam

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #9375 on: February 24, 2014, 11:10:41 pm »

Moreover, happy birthday! This thread is one year old since February 15th, 2012!

Make it two years, since we're in 2014 now.

People lying to you in varying degrees, now that's pretty sweet and game-changing.
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iceball3

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #9376 on: February 24, 2014, 11:32:23 pm »

I got a few questions:
-With combat receiving all these recent changes, do you think at some point (not in this update) we will be seeing 'mental' skills, like liar, observer and intimidation affecting the flow of combat? For example, liar skill vs observer and judge of intent in terms of dealing with feints, bluffs, and the like?

-With the new "multi attack" option, will we see an option to commit an 'attack sequence' at some point?

-What sorts of other combat maneuvers would you like to see in the game, Toady?

The new update upcoming has me so excited~

EDIT: I may have to clarify - by 'attack sequence', i mean specific arrangements of actions such as the classic 'flurry of fists'
 or other martial maneuvers.
« Last Edit: February 24, 2014, 11:34:20 pm by iceball3 »
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Footkerchief

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #9377 on: February 25, 2014, 12:23:22 am »

-With combat receiving all these recent changes, do you think at some point (not in this update) we will be seeing 'mental' skills, like liar, observer and intimidation affecting the flow of combat? For example, liar skill vs observer and judge of intent in terms of dealing with feints, bluffs, and the like?

Observer is already used, and you can expect the others to become relevant where reasonable:
Rainseeker:    So what is... How does the uh... What skills have you incorporated into this in the new stuff you do?
Toady:   There's no, there's no, if I remember, there's no new ones but the observer skill comes up a lot more. It used to... The observer skill used to give you... which is the sort of... it's called situational awareness in the code and it's just sort of for € for observing.
And a kind of paying attention to your surroundings and especially during a fight. And it used to just help you with being hit from the side and so you wouldn't get the 'hit you from the side' minus or whatever, and it also helped you judge when people were going to charge so you didn't get surprised by people's charges. But now it's used to give you for four or five little pieces of information about the attack, depending on how good the roll is, and that can really make a huge difference in your decision making so that skill became a lot more important. I haven't broken up parrying or anything like that, so there's not like 'defense with a sword' versus 'offense with a sword' - and I'm not going to do any kind of break ups of those skills until we get to the actual combat styles and techniques, in which case this is going to blossom into, you know, a hundred different things and you know, get rather out of control which is nice, for that part.

-With the new "multi attack" option, will we see an option to commit an 'attack sequence' at some point?

-What sorts of other combat maneuvers would you like to see in the game, Toady?


Combat styles

    Combat styles involving weapons or natural attacks with associated stances and moves
    Ability to learn moves, etc. from others with whom you have a high enough reputation
    Certain moves may only be available as specific counters, while others might just be regular attacks
    Ability to create new moves/styles when highly skilled

« Last Edit: February 25, 2014, 12:28:16 am by Footkerchief »
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smirk

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #9378 on: February 25, 2014, 02:51:55 am »

Quote from: devlog
People can lie about their opinion of an entity and their initial reactions are moderated based on how afraid they are of the rulers, if it fits their personality.
...
Longest function of the day is moderate_private_opinion_of_entity_through_cultural_identity(), which filters an opinion through cultural rumors/reputation and personality to change an overt hate reaction into fear, for example, and then the public opinion function continues to morph that based on the audience, so they can swap from hate to fear to "all for it" before you hear them speak.
Oh man. Oh man. NPCs grow up so fast. Brings a tear to my eye.

How much of a low-hanging fruit would you consider multiple-person conversations to be? Will we be able to address large crowds in adv mode anytime soon, or is that slated to be covered by different mechanics entirely?
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Cycle

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #9379 on: February 25, 2014, 05:23:18 am »

Question:
With the new opinion facets in play, can we be expecting large scale retaliation from villagers in sites or even in dwarfs mode?
I could imagine what kind of hell it would brew if all my dwarfs started turning against my nobles.


Can't wait to see the new AI. So much  social !!SCIENCE!! to be done!
« Last Edit: February 25, 2014, 05:34:50 am by Cycle »
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Footkerchief

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #9380 on: February 25, 2014, 09:38:26 am »

How much of a low-hanging fruit would you consider multiple-person conversations to be? Will we be able to address large crowds in adv mode anytime soon, or is that slated to be covered by different mechanics entirely?

Already implemented:
02/15/2013 Toady One In our ongoing 'moments of restraint' boss rush, I'm currently up against the conversation engine. I've decided I pretty much have to get conversations out into regular play so that I can tell a room full of people that I just killed a goblin patrol, but I'm trying to avoid a completely monstrous overhaul. Bartering will remain an instanteous activity for instance -- pulling that out right now is unnecessary and would take a bit of time. It is a continuing process, but the result should be cool, and it'll allow you to spread news in a more satisfying fashion (rather than telling one person and having it magically spread around instantly, though they will still spread news after a time once they are offloaded). I should have an honest insurrection in place before long here.

02/20/2013 Toady One The new conversation approach is working out well enough. Each statement takes about as much time as a regular step, so if you find enough to talk about in some later release, you'd be able to chat until the sun goes down. This also means that conversations are susceptible to interruption, and each statement made by people you are talking to is a "move" they are making either simultaneously with their other actions (like walking and fighting) or instead of them. Incidents you are a part of or rumors that you hear now go into your head, and you can pass them along or bring them up with whoever you talk to. Right now these incidents include every time you strangle a wolf out in the woods, so I'll probably have to find a way to manage the lists according to how interesting they are. In any case, since you can now bring up the occupation and related events, it's a matter of adding some reactions and conversation options geared toward getting the ball rolling.

Question:
With the new opinion facets in play, can we be expecting large scale retaliation from villagers in sites or even in dwarfs mode?
I could imagine what kind of hell it would brew if all my dwarfs started turning against my nobles.


There won't be Fortress Mode insurrections.  People can rebel in Adv. Mode by becoming bandits, joining the adventurer as a companion, or (I think) jumping into a fight that somebody else started.  I don't think a spontaneous uprising can happen yet.
« Last Edit: February 25, 2014, 09:43:14 am by Footkerchief »
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smjjames

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #9381 on: February 25, 2014, 10:14:03 am »

Quote from: devlog
People can lie about their opinion of an entity and their initial reactions are moderated based on how afraid they are of the rulers, if it fits their personality.
...
Longest function of the day is moderate_private_opinion_of_entity_through_cultural_identity(), which filters an opinion through cultural rumors/reputation and personality to change an overt hate reaction into fear, for example, and then the public opinion function continues to morph that based on the audience, so they can swap from hate to fear to "all for it" before you hear them speak.
Oh man. Oh man. NPCs grow up so fast. Brings a tear to my eye.

How much of a low-hanging fruit would you consider multiple-person conversations to be? Will we be able to address large crowds in adv mode anytime soon, or is that slated to be covered by different mechanics entirely?

Isn't that pretty much already in via merchants? I know it's not multiple individual conversations, but it's multiple people talking at the same time.
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Knight Otu

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #9382 on: February 25, 2014, 10:54:04 am »

Isn't that pretty much already in via merchants? I know it's not multiple individual conversations, but it's multiple people talking at the same time.
That's not really a good answer to that question. The multiple conversations bit is the core of the question, after all. Market banter is little more than hearing a capybara somewhere - neither actually expect a response - and is only a very narrow topic.
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monk12

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #9383 on: February 25, 2014, 12:21:10 pm »

Yeah, there's a difference between being able to hear multiple conversations going on at once, and being able to have a single conversation with a room full of people ("Hail, peaceful villagers, I have slain the dragon!" "You're full of shit!" "No, here's his head!" "He's a hero!" "Free beer for the hero!" etc.) It's suggested by the first Footkerchief quote, but not settled, I think.

smjjames

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #9384 on: February 25, 2014, 06:24:45 pm »

Isn't that pretty much already in via merchants? I know it's not multiple individual conversations, but it's multiple people talking at the same time.
That's not really a good answer to that question. The multiple conversations bit is the core of the question, after all. Market banter is little more than hearing a capybara somewhere - neither actually expect a response - and is only a very narrow topic.
Yeah, there's a difference between being able to hear multiple conversations going on at once, and being able to have a single conversation with a room full of people ("Hail, peaceful villagers, I have slain the dragon!" "You're full of shit!" "No, here's his head!" "He's a hero!" "Free beer for the hero!" etc.) It's suggested by the first Footkerchief quote, but not settled, I think.

I misread the question the first time, or maybe didn't read the whole question.
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Th4DwArfY1

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #9385 on: February 25, 2014, 06:30:59 pm »

I would love to get to the "Free beer for the hero!" Stage  :P

Dear goodness, the flashes of Drunk Fortress in adventure mode  :o
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Uristsonsonson

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #9386 on: February 25, 2014, 06:45:31 pm »

Now that your creation* can lie to you, how can you know anything is says is true anymore?

Nevermind that it's more or less established by now that the Toady's relationship to DF is basically the same as Ponder Stibbon's to Hex...
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Mel_Vixen

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #9387 on: February 25, 2014, 07:15:54 pm »

Or doctor Bowmans relationship to HAL or Florence.

heh i am sure today has build in some LIE indicators like colorcoding the text. (Which would actually be awesome for consolers proffesional, Liers and such!)

Also you can test the Functions outside the Game-mode i am sure ... much like the Arena-mode. It helps if you see a Dorf and other sentient being as list of stats instead of actual individuals. You do then a boundary analyses (say at what point/score should the AI lie) and then you force a situation with the appropriate numbers to test if its behaves like intended. Hell i had a job which was essentialy testing blackboxed Software with only the designspecs.

It would be cool if the Lieing could be more generalized writing a few such long function seems somehow tedious. It would need a general notion thought about which information one should lie. Half of unified system seems to be done anyway if the NPCs can already consider your reputation and construct a Trust score.
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Helgoland

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #9388 on: February 25, 2014, 07:26:43 pm »

Nevermind that it's more or less established by now that the Toady's relationship to DF is basically the same as Ponder Stibbon's to Hex...
Could we recreate Discworld on a DF computer?
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StrongAxe

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #9389 on: February 25, 2014, 08:41:28 pm »

Will adventurers be able to detect being lied to, or is that the reference to
Quote
I haven't incorporated the old dwarf-mode lying/etc. skills, though I imagine that'll come into play at some point when there's more time to play around with it.
Dev Log 2014-02-24
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