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[orius]

I like some of these ideas:

Healing rain.  Good for the dorfs, but should also be able to affect wildlife and invaders as well.
Youth mist.  The dorfs like being young again, but you just lost some very useful legendary dwarves who are now useless children.  They shouldn't lose their skills, but they may get rusty depending on how long their new childhood lasts.  They also will live longer as a result and maybe have more children if their spouse (if any) gets de-aged.
Bliss/ecstasy effects.  Dorfs get too happy to work, slowing various productions to a crawl.
Ents/nature spirits/etc.  Get hostile if you chop down too many trees on the surface, trample grass, pick plants, etc. May also not like extensive excavations or construcions on the surface (so becomes harder to build that megaproject.)
Fairies annoy the hell out of dwarves (but are otherwise harmless).  Like the idea of them taking over workshops in an attempt to be "helpful" too.  But if a dwarf or cat kills them, then you face the wrath of the other fairies.  Also like nasty evil fairies for evil regions.

[Orangebottle]

Dwarves in these regions slowly grow taller and leaner. Their ears get sharper and longer, their beards get shorter, and they begin to love nature. They love it so much that they leave the fort to live in nature. One by one they leave, until only one is left...

Then you tell your last remaining dwarf to pull the lever, the one that seals him inside and away from the rest of the world. This lever is also linked to the magma cannon that resides at the top of the mountain, and turns the region into a second magma sea.

[white_darkness]

Many of the classic fairy stories also involve them turning against the people they helped if they don't get paid.

I do believe there were several old Irish tales about leaving an unshod horse and some money by a fairy mound and coming back the next day to find it shod and the money gone.  Probably wouldn't find the horse if you didn't leave the money.

Or leaving out a bowl of milk at your front door and finding your house cleaned.  No milk, and nothing done at best.  At worst, they might mess it up.

Unless you're dealing with something like the Nac Mac Feegles.  You leave an unshod horse and some money at a Feegle mound and return the next day, you'll find neither the horse or the money, and possibly, your liquor cabinet empty when you get home.

One thing I haven't spotted mentioned would be some form of were-bane, like the classic belief in wolfsbane repelling werewolves.

So some sort of healing aura, something that weakens the undead, maybe helpful fairies that turn mischievous if you don't pay them (but not too helpful) or sometimes their help isn't quite what you want. Toss in the were-bane as a plant and make it farmable, then not only could you have something to repel them at the fort entrance, but if poisons ever get added, the perfect addition to a marksdwarf's arsenal.

The land turning against those who try to rape it is definitely also a thought, though one would want that confined to the more "dangerous" areas, rather than benign.

[WillowLuman]

Seems to be a feeling in this thread that we should just force the entire world to be evil and unsurvivable. Well, here's my take:

1) Humans and Dwarves don't settle in Good areas because Elves live there. The Humans and Dwarves had one too many elven missionaries knocking on their door on sunday.

2)Where did Toady say that Faeries in DF are supposed to be evil/malicious? Judging by ingame description, I think they are supposed to be Tinkerbell. Maybe they should be hateable as in "Urist was Annoyed by faeries giving him constant advice lately"

3)I think that good areas are supposed to be super-saccharine, I think the trope is "Tastes Like Diabetes." Either that or they're supposed to be like Rivendell

4) I like the ideas of indiscriminate healing mist/rain and effect on temperament. Maybe (depending on personality) dwarves might either get bored/disgusted by the sickeningly sweetness of the land or become enthralled by the charming place. Perhaps they might become contented and lazy, seeing no need to work (Bomrek McAnic cancels arm weapon trap: why bother?) They might become pacifist, refusing to fight except in self-defense, and if they kill a foe they lament over the horrid violence (was grieved to be forced to kill a fellow creature recently.)

Basically, I agree that there should be unique challenges in Good areas, but not a reskinned version of other challenges (i.e. everything trying to kill you.) Good areas could have their own different challenges by lulling you into a false sense of security, making you unprepared for when things from not-so-good areas come calling.

EDIT: Sorry for the snark

[Starver]

Because of forum access errors, I was forced to rewrite a summary of my original attempt to post, last night, intending to post it later.

Probably old stuff now...

Spoiler: What I couldn't post the other day (click to show/hide)

[http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=101741.msg0;topicseen#new]


A 504 error wiped out my previous (not too short) post, so, let's try a summary:

Good regions can kill you with kindness.  Disinterest with work, apathy.  Deaths and injuries, even of hunted/battled/butchered creatures, cause bad thoughts (perhaps dangerous to have a dedicated butcher, unless/until they can flip into the PTSD psychological conditioning).  Tantrums lead towards lost-parent/failed-mood suicidal thoughts rather than rampaging.  Deaths of friends hit harder, and friends are more likely (either through more socialising or region-specific increase in friendship-gaining), so 'tantrum spirals' are instead escalating lemming-like suicide urges.

But I also tried to say that it should really be diametrically opposed to evil, rather than different to both evil and neutral areas (as the above might well be), while chucking those ideas about so I was saying how perhaps instead we should have...

...Where evil mists rot the bodies of endangered dwarves and other creatures, turning them to aged and dry husks, "good mists" rejuvinate.  Problem?  Legendary Armourer becomes child again, skills regress (like 'rusts', but... nicer sounding and instant).  You're left with an unproductive member of the fortress who doesn't even have the skills to immediately resume high-quality work once adulthood is reattained.  And juveniles caught in such a mist become babies (their mother has an urge to rush in to nurse them?) and babies would pop out of existence (potentially become pregnancies-in-progress?).  Unhappy thoughts, perhaps from relatives so affected.


Yes.  That's a summary.  Basically I was throwing a lot of ideas out there.  Scattergun.  Into the air.  Probably nowhere near any viable target.  Bet you're glad you didn't get to read the original, though.

[Starver]

...didn't read far enough down that post.  Ignore this.

Re-re-editing to make it obvious that I was editing the above, which had originally been a reply that I then found was superfluous.  Darnit.  Got in there so quickly it didn't even make an obvious "edited on" note...

[simonthedwarf]

I would argue that Good regions should be challenging perhaps not in the same way as Evil regions because arguably dwarves are evil. They're a race dominated by greed and substance abuse. They are also war-like and aggressive.  Perhaps good weather should annoy dwarves in some way.

"Urist McRumple is unhappy. He was caught in brilliant sunlight recently. He was annoyed by pixies sprinkling glitter in his hair."

"Urist McGoodyTwoShoes canceled dig: doesn't believe in materialism anymore."

In a twisted way it also makes sense for evil creatures opposed to the "good biome" to assault it if civilization covets the area. Enjoying your heaven-like jungle of joy? Evil has landed to make the day sour for you.

[TSTwizby]

I would argue that Good regions should be challenging perhaps not in the same way as Evil regions because arguably dwarves are evil. They're a race dominated by greed and substance abuse. They are also war-like and aggressive.  Perhaps good weather should annoy dwarves in some way.

Or you can have all your dwarves selflessly devote their lives to making toys, which you give away whenever a caravan comes by, and lock themselves indoors whenever a siege comes by until they get bored and leave. There are multiple playstyles, and none of them are really cannon as to how dwarves would be if you weren't ordering them around.

I like the idea that some dwarves would be annoyed by all the shiny happiness though. Perhaps if you didn't keep them away from the surface they could snap, and then the pixies would take their revenge, and fuel an ever-growing ball of retributive pranks. No socks would be safe from the pixies disorganizing touch, no sooner would you get your wood stockpile full than it would be scattered across the fortress. Dwarves will be locked in their rooms, and creatures let out of cages. Chaos would rule.

As for the evil creatures attacking the area, I think something like that should wait until different civilizations have a bit more personality. Maybe goblins will attack and try to destroy the land, while elves try to drive you off it and humans try to take it over when they're at war with you, or something.

[NW_Kohaku]

I would argue that Good regions should be challenging perhaps not in the same way as Evil regions because arguably dwarves are evil. They're a race dominated by greed and substance abuse. They are also war-like and aggressive.  Perhaps good weather should annoy dwarves in some way.

"Urist McRumple is unhappy. He was caught in brilliant sunlight recently. He was annoyed by pixies sprinkling glitter in his hair."

"Urist McGoodyTwoShoes canceled dig: doesn't believe in materialism anymore."

In a twisted way it also makes sense for evil creatures opposed to the "good biome" to assault it if civilization covets the area. Enjoying your heaven-like jungle of joy? Evil has landed to make the day sour for you.

Actually, look at the ethics raws: dwarves are the most moral species (unless you somehow want to argue elves are, but I think the banishment for lying is silly and cannibalism is just way over the line) in the game.  Even humans think slavery is just fine by them and killing someone who isn't a human is cool just so long as it doesn't start a war or something, it's not like they're human or anything.

It's just players that enjoy unfortunate accidents, magma cannons, mermaid soap factories, and kitten genocides.

[Dynastia]

The ideas I like, and some of my own...

- Healing mist ; should gradually heal irreparable nerve damage but not regrow missing parts
- Purifying rain ; cleanses all bloodstains, vomit, pus, freshens stagnant water etc.
- General laziness, longer breaks, more sleep
- Gradual shift of attributes to be more compassionate, empathetic, etc. Nobody can "Doesn't care about anything anymore"
- Goblin and kobold thieves change their mind and go home before reaching your fortress
- Goblin siegers are perma-stunned and regularly vomit at all the disgusting goodness.
- All warring civs more likely to send a peace offer
- Killing unicorns doesn't provoke a war, but rather the eventual suicide of all dwarfs involved
- No vampires, werewolves or necromancers dare approach
- Clowns spontaneously die on exposure to the surface

[GreatWyrmGold]

Hm, one idea that occurred to me is that good and evil dislike each other. Maybe good creatures should be hostile to evil ones and vise versa as opposed_to_life creatures are hostile to living ones. And maybe dwarves that live in good areas long enough are treated as good creatures, meaning that goblins hate you even more.

Also, mutually benifeting magic like I mentioned earlier.

[San]

Select wildlife could tame itself, similar to the way cats domesticated themselves in real life. Irresistible cuteness could lead to swarms of fluffy wamblers, as well as depletion of food supplies when animals can start eating.

Will animals like dogs and bears ever need food? Is that a planned feature?

[isitanos]

First, remember that once Toady implement spheres, generic good/evil areas are out. So don't get too serious trying to rationalize a whole system around your concept of good and evil.

Now, it's true that evil regions currently have a lot more interesting thematic stuff to them. Good regions should have more of that, not necessarily as a mirror image or as an extra challenge. Just good fluff.

Presumably, a region controlled by the powers of Good is a really bad place for dwarves who do evil things. So, damage nature too much, and it will start defending itself... it's like declaring war on the elves, except the plants start strangling you. Similarly, mass slaughters of animals or dwarves, tantrum spirals and the accompanying crimes should bring you some kind of retribution. Going by D&D classifications, said retribution could come more from the lawful good side (Die in fire from the Heavens, heathen dwarves who commit evil!) or more neutral good (Accomplish a quest/task to redeem yourself i.e. destroy evil creature/artefact on map) or even chaotic good (Narcotic cloud makes those it touches "peace and love" again.)

Good is not supposed to take sides between opponents who are both somewhat evil, so healing both you and the people sieging you would be a nice twist, as would be killing both, actually .

You could get special help against the HFS in those regions. If you've been good, of course. Or you may get punished for unleashing evil upon this peaceful region. In any case, angels could turn out pretty interesting if implemented "Toady-style", I think.


Finally you could encounter "extremist good", i.e. beings who are civilized and intelligent but have suffered too much and see evil everywhere, and think that the only solution is to eradicate every form of life except themselves. So, the Ur-Quan, for those who have played Star Control 2.

[Neonivek]

Yep isitanos. Races that are soo "good" that they see everyone else around them as soo flawed as to be evil happens.

The Formen in Dungeons and dragons for example are the ultimate expression of order and find everyone them to be so chaotic (even lawful characters) that they simply want to enslave everyone.

Celestial beings that are so perfect that even saints seem like horrid beings are also common in fiction.

A SUPER good land being soo good that the dwarves seem like a sinful afront to it that needs to be removed also makes sense.

[Archereon]

Personally I think good areas should be hard, but not because of any inherit hostility; rather than being (initially) deadly, they're more demanding, but have great rewards waiting for those who can fufill those demands. Think of it like a fusion between a lazy noble who mandates 100 pairs of adamantine trousers and the legendary metalsmith who makes those trousers.

No clear cutting forests/plant growths or importing it from non-elves, no over hunting, too many deaths of nonevil creatures angers the good region, too many constructions on the surface or in the caverns is a no no, don't flood everything with lava or change the landscape to much, ect.

But if you manage to keep the land reasonably happy, you get healing rains which make goblins and trolls disoriented and cause undead to burst into flame, ents who will come to your aid against the forces of evil, and maybe celestially who will come to your aid if you open the circus and re-seal it.

Of course, if you fail to appease the region, you'll get plants coming to life and attacking dwarves, rivers flooding the entire region, mists that disorient, deage, ect your dorfs, and if you piss it off, celestials will descend from the heavens to smite your fortress in an attack comparable to the clown car, and will keep attacking in small numbers from then on.