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Author Topic: Stupid embark tricks  (Read 21871 times)

Di

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Re: Stupid embark tricks
« Reply #15 on: February 23, 2012, 03:15:01 am »

Is this some dwarven variant of gentoo conference?
Most of these tricks were used by experienced players but I doubt they make embark easier.
And they definitely keep occupied a couple of dwarfs that could do more important things if you embark in hostile environment.
If you played earlier versions, you knew that having at least novice appraisal was absolutely necessary to see the prices in a trade depot.  Not anymore.  Drop it like it's hot.
I don't get it, you still can't see prices if broker is not appraiser, and while single bargain is enough to fix that, I haven't seen high level traders in a while. Grower, appraiser and some military skills are the only ones I always take at the embark.
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Sowelu

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Re: Stupid embark tricks
« Reply #16 on: February 23, 2012, 03:32:02 am »

Most of these tricks were used by experienced players but I doubt they make embark easier.
And they definitely keep occupied a couple of dwarfs that could do more important things if you embark in hostile environment.
True...it'll take a little time.  But the advantages of decking out your military dwarves with a lot of bars' worth of *equipment* by halfway through the first month shouldn't be understated.  Unless you're overrun from the moment your wagon lands, you should have time to produce your stuff...and in a marginally-terrible case, you could bring one pick and dig a little hidey-hole to work in peace (haul bars and wood, build a hatch).

You can spend 84 embark points for one base-quality bronze short sword, or you can get two *quality* or ≡quality≡ [bismuth] bronze short swords for 86 embark points and two days' worth of three dwarves of labor.  Hey, up to you...

I don't get it, you still can't see prices if broker is not appraiser, and while single bargain is enough to fix that, I haven't seen high level traders in a while. Grower, appraiser and some military skills are the only ones I always take at the embark.
Huh, I can still see prices without any appraiser at all.  Weird.  I may be mistaken, but I'm pretty sure that was the case...I'll double check tomorrow.

If you embark with a woodcutter for fuel, then you can bring Bismunthinite, Copper Nuggets, and Cassiterite, which costs 1, 4 (two copper needed), and 2 respectively, for a total material value of 7.
That sounded neat so I tested out those values.  And while they may have material values of x1, x2 and x2, stones themselves have a base value of 3 (compared to 5 for bars).  A bismuthinite stone costs 3, malachite costs 6 (I couldn't get native copper for some reason), and cassiterite costs 6.  That's 3+6+6+6 or 21 for the stone, and 3+3+3+3 (ore->bars) +3 (bars->bismuth bronze) or 15 for the fuel, for a total of 36 dwarfbucks.  Compared to 43 dwarfbucks for the bar form that IS a savings of seven dwarfbucks per four bars, but it'll take more fiddly micromanagement: You need to burn five fuel and smelt four bars pronto, so you can forge that axe and start getting more fuel.  It's going to eat up an awful lot of time too, since you will need to keep your wood burner and smelter on the job for 4x longer.  I could see it being worthwhile in some cases if you can spare four dwarves; burn, smelt, chop, and haul logs...  With the values so close, I'm not sure it's really worth it most of the time, especially if you need to start your woodcutter off with skill points you'd otherwise spend elsewhere.
« Last Edit: February 23, 2012, 03:37:58 am by Sowelu »
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NinjaBoot

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Re: Stupid embark tricks
« Reply #17 on: February 23, 2012, 03:37:40 am »

I'm a fan of the double or even triple or quadruple embark. 7 masons (or metalcrafters, or miners, or skill for whatever I want to build) a small ammount of food/drink then rest for raw meterials (blocks, etc). Make sure none of them die, or bury/memorialize them if they do...or it's ghosts for future embarks that you can't do anything about.
I was talking with someone today who mentioned he was going to try embarking, leaving all the materials he brings with him there, and now that historical figures come back to subsequent forts, embark with dwarves that have good/useful skills built up so that, on reclaim, they'll come back as migrants, instead of 15 animal caretakers and their 45 children.

Whats wrong with 15 packmules? 
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Ubiq

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Re: Stupid embark tricks
« Reply #18 on: February 23, 2012, 04:38:34 am »

When you factor in fuel, below, each bismuth bronze bar costs a little less than 11 embark points.

You can also forge that Bismuth Bronze into spiked balls or serrated discs to trade with the caravan; even at no quality, those sell for 756 dwarfbucks or 54 times what it cost to make.
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miauw62

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Re: Stupid embark tricks
« Reply #19 on: February 23, 2012, 04:58:32 am »

I'm a fan of the double or even triple or quadruple embark. 7 masons (or metalcrafters, or miners, or skill for whatever I want to build) a small ammount of food/drink then rest for raw meterials (blocks, etc). Make sure none of them die, or bury/memorialize them if they do...or it's ghosts for future embarks that you can't do anything about.
I was talking with someone today who mentioned he was going to try embarking, leaving all the materials he brings with him there, and now that historical figures come back to subsequent forts, embark with dwarves that have good/useful skills built up so that, on reclaim, they'll come back as migrants, instead of 15 animal caretakers and their 45 children.
the 45 children that are good for nothing.

Whats wrong with 15 packmules?
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Neyvn

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Re: Stupid embark tricks
« Reply #20 on: February 23, 2012, 05:01:06 am »

ptw
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Nan

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Re: Stupid embark tricks
« Reply #21 on: February 23, 2012, 05:28:31 am »

I generally bring a mix of steel making supplies and bronze making supplies. I think it's well worthwhile to give your soldiers steel weapons, steel helms are also a good investment IMHO, since helms are far more likely to absorb fatal hits than other armor pierces (mainly because a dwarf who passes out will be compulsively headshotted - a steel helm will make him safer passed out than he would be standing). Steel is expensive - about 3-4 times as costly as bronze, but embark points are cheap enough that it's still worthwhile for certain items.
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pushy

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Re: Stupid embark tricks
« Reply #22 on: February 23, 2012, 07:23:51 am »

Trick #1: Forge-your-own bismuth bronze
- Don't bring ANY metal tools except an anvil.
- Bring N tin, N bismuth, and 2N copper bars.  You're going to be making a lot of bismuth bronze in a hurry.  Those all cost 10 each, while one bar of bronze costs 25.  Four assorted bars + 1 fuel = four bismuth bronze, what a steal!  When you factor in fuel, below, each bismuth bronze bar costs a little less than 11 embark points.
- Bring a ton of wood.  You'll use it as your sole fuel source early on and you want to start burning it ASAP.  A cost of 3 and a little time gives you charcoal, much cheaper than the 10 that fuel normally costs.
- Burn five logs, and you have 4 bismuth bronze and the fuel to make your initial 2 picks + 2 axes for the low low price of 55 dwarfbucks in total.  Pretty good considering that a single pick is normally, like...44 embark points.  If you brought a proficient weaponsmith, they are probably *tools*, which makes a massive difference if your workers get jumped by anything.
- I can usually spare enough points to make, oh, 28 bars.  Two picks for miners, two axes for woodcutters, and eight bars each for a squad of three military dwarves: That's a pretty damn good start!  Right from the very beginning, they each get a *quality* weapon, shield, breastplate, and greaves.  You can cover the rest with leather if you want.
Personally, I prefer just making all my dwarves (except my miners) woodcutters and giving them wooden training axes (made from the wood of the dismantled caravan and from chopped-down trees, so completely free). Five starting dwarves plus any migrants in the first few waves will make VERY quick work of any tree-felling that needs doing, and (even if you bring wood along) at a MUCH cheaper cost than making metal axes, regardless of what metal that is. Later on those training axes can be replaced by metal axes so my dwarves have something semi-useful to protect themselves with if they get caught by a goblin ambush or something, but initially the wood axe will do so why waste the metal? Would be a different story if embarking in an evil biome where survival is an issue from the very start, but for areas that aren't immediately filled with things that want to kill you (where you'd have the time to forge weapons and armour), I don't see much point in wasting embark points on metal for woodcutters' axes.

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Trick #3: Leather and wood goods
- Seriously guys.  Bring that wood.  The less time you spend chopping it down, the more time you spend building your early fortress.  Also, you'll be wishing you brought more wood when your wilderness gets mostly depleted and you have to station your military outside to cover your woodcutters from goblin attacks.
Which brings us onto this...by the time you've cleared the forest and goblins start coming, you should have had enough time to dig out a little underground forest which would be goblin-free, thus no need to station military outside to cover suicidal woodcutters because they can chop down trees from the safety of within the depths of their own fortress.

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Trick #2: Cheap booze
I think I heard that dwarves prefer homemade booze, too.
Nope. Alcohol doesn't have quality modifiers (that's another common misconception because dwarves have a thought about how they 'had a fine drink lately' or whatever the wording is) and they don't care where it came from. Each dwarf has a preference for one type of booze, and drinking this will give the dwarf a happy thought. If a booze they don't have a preference for is the only thing they've got, they won't get a happy thought from drinking it (even if it's made by a legendary brewer) and then after having it a certain number of times in a row (I forget exactly, but it's around five times) they start getting an unhappy thought about having to drink the same old booze.
The plump helmet trick will inevitably result in you having dwarves who are a bit grumpy about drinking wine unless you bring along some barrels of ale/beer/rum or get a farm set up very quickly to churn out stuff for those different drinks, but since they'll also be getting minor negative thoughts from other things anyway, like a lack of tables/chairs and possibly having to sleep on the ground, this isn't a major concern.

I don't get it, you still can't see prices if broker is not appraiser, and while single bargain is enough to fix that, I haven't seen high level traders in a while. Grower, appraiser and some military skills are the only ones I always take at the embark.
Novice appraisal is all you need to see the prices and any dwarf will get that when they initiate trading at the depot once the first caravan comes along. You don't need a high appraisal level for any reason, and do you have much need to see item value before the first caravan arrives? It may be nice to have but it's not really essential.
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ThtblovesDF

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Re: Stupid embark tricks
« Reply #23 on: February 23, 2012, 07:35:37 am »

STUFF + LABOR = BETTER STUFF

Well blamy, these are new concepts for dwarf fortress and embarks, thanks for the update~
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Sowelu

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Re: Stupid embark tricks
« Reply #24 on: February 24, 2012, 03:13:15 am »

Oh here's a new one on me.

I started out with a dwarf with 5 ambush and no other skills (so his title was 'hunter').  He came equipped with a bronze crossbow, a pig tail fiber quiver, and 32 silver bolts...none of which I paid for in any way.

Could use some research into whether you need to be a "hunter" to get that stuff, or just have any points in ambush at all...but IF all it takes is a single point, I could see it being worthwhile to give it to all your dwarves for the quickest weapons ever.
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His servers are going to be powered by goat blood and moonlight.
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luppolo

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Re: Stupid embark tricks
« Reply #25 on: February 24, 2012, 04:14:57 am »

dwarves with ambusher as highest skill come full geared for hunting and early skirmish (they had a full leather set on df2010, never checked recently) this was known for a long time
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Wine Biscuits

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Re: Stupid embark tricks
« Reply #26 on: February 24, 2012, 05:43:41 am »

Yes, you can use stone pots for booze.

Going to make stone pot barrels from now on :]
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NinjaBoot

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Re: Stupid embark tricks
« Reply #27 on: February 24, 2012, 05:49:36 am »

I'm a fan of the double or even triple or quadruple embark. 7 masons (or metalcrafters, or miners, or skill for whatever I want to build) a small ammount of food/drink then rest for raw meterials (blocks, etc). Make sure none of them die, or bury/memorialize them if they do...or it's ghosts for future embarks that you can't do anything about.
I was talking with someone today who mentioned he was going to try embarking, leaving all the materials he brings with him there, and now that historical figures come back to subsequent forts, embark with dwarves that have good/useful skills built up so that, on reclaim, they'll come back as migrants, instead of 15 animal caretakers and their 45 children.
the 45 children that are good for nothing.

Whats wrong with 15 packmules?

45 live subjects to test !!DWARVEN SCIENCE!! on!
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Sowelu

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Re: Stupid embark tricks
« Reply #28 on: February 24, 2012, 05:52:27 am »

dwarves with ambusher as highest skill come full geared for hunting and early skirmish (they had a full leather set on df2010, never checked recently) this was known for a long time

Not known to me!  I suspect it's obscure enough to qualify as a Stupid Embark Trick, in any case.

I may consider making my doctor a 3-point ambusher from now on, just for the spare loot.  After all, I'm normally spreading out his skills between five categories anyway.
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Some things were made for one thing, for me / that one thing is the sea~
His servers are going to be powered by goat blood and moonlight.
Oh, a biomass/24 hour solar facility. How green!

Psieye

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Re: Stupid embark tricks
« Reply #29 on: February 24, 2012, 07:44:11 am »

Stupid embark tricks really show what sort of playstyle is in mind. For me, I bring bags of sand so I can set up a magma industry within a month of embark with a green glass pump for anti-magma creature safety. Then any spare bags of sand can be turned into glass trade goods to get me a headstart on trade. Though lately I have been thinking that I should slow my progress down in the first year so I don't end up with a serious threat in year 2 before everything else is ready.
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