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[Jake]

...Let me think about that. How were literacy rates in the 1300s or 1400s?

Higher than you might think, particularly in cities. Your average farmhand or labourer could muddle through without, but skilled tradesmen, merchants and anyone else who owned property or needed to keep even the most rudimentary financial or inventory records would need at least to be able to read and write a little.

[GreatWyrmGold]

Alright, so bibliophiles spending tons of time reading would indeed lead to mass biblophile burnings once players get involved.

[Owlbread]

Alright, so bibliophiles spending tons of time reading would indeed lead to mass biblophile burnings once players get involved.

But there would not be many merchants or people who would need to read. How many of your dwarves need to read right now?

[GreatWyrmGold]

Alright, so bibliophiles spending tons of time reading would indeed lead to mass biblophile burnings once players get involved.

But there would not be many merchants or people who would need to read. How many of your dwarves need to read right now?

...Let me think about that. How were literacy rates in the 1300s or 1400s?

Higher than you might think, particularly in cities. Your average farmhand or labourer could muddle through without, but skilled tradesmen, merchants and anyone else who owned property or needed to keep even the most rudimentary financial or inventory records would need at least to be able to read and write a little.

Most dwarves count as skilled tradesmen, and almost all own some kind of property. Unless it's just on loan from the fort leader or something, but it's dependant on dwarven politics.
Besides, the written signs in towns testify to high literacy rates.

[Owlbread]

...Let me think about that. How were literacy rates in the 1300s or 1400s?

Higher than you might think, particularly in cities. Your average farmhand or labourer could muddle through without, but skilled tradesmen, merchants and anyone else who owned property or needed to keep even the most rudimentary financial or inventory records would need at least to be able to read and write a little.

Most dwarves count as skilled tradesmen, and almost all own some kind of property. Unless it's just on loan from the fort leader or something, but it's dependant on dwarven politics.
Besides, the written signs in towns testify to high literacy rates.

But I don't think a very skilled woodcrafter, jeweller, mason or even an engraver would ever really need to read. Maybe they could have a rudimentary knowledge and be able to recognise things on signs, but broadly speaking they may not be able to read much beyond that. The majority of dwarves are either craftsmen or manual labourers, and neither really need to read.

[GreatWyrmGold]

...Let me think about that. How were literacy rates in the 1300s or 1400s?

Higher than you might think, particularly in cities. Your average farmhand or labourer could muddle through without, but skilled tradesmen, merchants and anyone else who owned property or needed to keep even the most rudimentary financial or inventory records would need at least to be able to read and write a little.

Most dwarves count as skilled tradesmen, and almost all own some kind of property. Unless it's just on loan from the fort leader or something, but it's dependant on dwarven politics.
Besides, the written signs in towns testify to high literacy rates.

But I don't think a very skilled woodcrafter, jeweller, mason or even an engraver would ever really need to read. Maybe they could have a rudimentary knowledge and be able to recognise things on signs, but broadly speaking they may not be able to read much beyond that. The majority of dwarves are either craftsmen or manual labourers, and neither really need to read.

...Craftsmen, the most iconic of dwarven professions and one that Jake cited literacy as most vital for. Plus, what would the point of signs printed with writing be if their customers were mostly illiterate? Pictures would work much better, no?

[thiosk]

My point was that no, most dwarves wouldn't be bookworms.  On the 0-5000 scale currently used for other attributes, only the highest level (2500+) would really be booklover types.  No crafting profession would require being a book lover.  The book lovers can, however, generate books under my framework, so if you manage to get a legendary craftdwarf who is also a book lover, then they could generate books that could be implemented in the library for child training.  Current professional dwarves have no interest in books and will gain little or anything from them.  (under my narrow framework of the role books play in the society)

[GreatWyrmGold]

Some would be biblophiles. They would be burned. I am a biblophile, but I do not fear being burned. Therefore, biblophilia should not be implemented in such a way that makes people want to kill them.

[thiosk]

Magma is a viable solution for any problem.  If bibliophilia becomes a problem, burn it with magma.  I don't see whats bad about this at all.  We already have lazy dwarves, I don't see book reading as any different than procrastination (and it at least leads to an occasionally positive outcome!)

[GreatWyrmGold]

Laziness is something that makes sense to punish, if not with magma. Biblophilia? Not so much.

[Owlbread]

...Craftsmen, the most iconic of dwarven professions and one that Jake cited literacy as most vital for. Plus, what would the point of signs printed with writing be if their customers were mostly illiterate? Pictures would work much better, no?

Jake did say it, but I don't see why a craftsman would have to read to be able to read well in order to make something with his hands. If you were an artisan of sorts and needed to keep records, as Jake was saying, I think you could get by with a novice or adequate skill in reading. Nothing that would allow you to read a full book, but enough to keep records. Think about it - how detailed would these records be? Orders from various people for statues and the like? Just get them to "make their mark" on a piece of paper or a slate or something. Fill in the rest yourself - Feb Mebzuthkadol, miner, requests statue of gorilla with hanging rings of gold.

The number of people who would be literate enough to read books would be extremely small, given that books were so rare and there was so little use for them for practical men. Books all had to be produced by hand, so they were unspeakably expensive and rare. In addition, some of the very few people who were able to read and write were monks, who wrote in latin. Being a "bibliophile" would be a very rare phenomenon indeed, reserved only to the most intelligent of the wealthy folk.

I also think that pictures would indeed work much better, and did, hence why people once used pictures to advertise things more often than words. I would rather that pictures were used more than writing.

Really, the only people in the entire DF world that I would imagine would need to be able to read well would be traders (and then only a bit), scholars, priests, philosophers (possibly), bookkeepers, mayors (possibly), monarchs and dukes (possibly - not all kings in the middle ages could read) and... that's about it. Maybe doctors. Wizarding types would need to read, certainly. But the vast majority of dwarves would not need to read books, and probably couldn't.

If you can't see what I mean, imagine being an artisan whose knowledge of writing only extends as far as marks on a slate to remind him of orders and stocks and such. Now imagine, as that artisan, trying to read this:

http://myloc.gov/_assets/Exhibitions/Bibles/OtherBibles/Assets/be0007_725.jpg

You'd have a lot of bother, certainly. Even if that was written in whatever his native language was, he'd still struggle.

[GreatWyrmGold]

First off, signs in DF are written on. If you can't read, you can't figure out what they're selling except by going inside. This is in human towns, and dwarves seem to be more advanced than humans.

Second, if you can read and comprehend a detailed request, what stops you from reading at least simple literature?

Finally, I was merely requesting biblophilia to be implemented in a way that wouldn't lead to bibliophiles being burnt.

[thiosk]

I understand your affinity for books, but players in DF burn whatever they feel like.  Magma appears to be the solution to every problem, problem being real or perceived.  Goblin explosion?  Magma.  Too many cats?  Magma.  All the cats are adopted by dwarves?  Burn the dwarves in magma.  Dwarf can't find enough silk cloth and goes crazy from his mood?  Magma.  Dwarf uses all the adamantine to make an earring?  Magma.  Too many children?  Burrow them and flood the room with magma.  This is a community that has figured out how drop children into pits with rabid dogs for 10 years until they come out at the end of it legendary in every military skill, provided they don't go insane first. 

If children aren't even implemented in a way that won't end up getting them burnt in magma.  I assure you, there is no way to implement books without someone deciding to use magma to make it "work" differently.   

And this is why I love this game!  All I want is for bibliophiles to run the school out of the library, making it (possibly) less desirable to burn the children, or the bibliophiles, in magma.  I don't see how we got off on this tangent anyway, exactly.

[Sus]

I think the idea of dwarves (and possibly other civs as well) creating literature would add nicely to the general immersion and feeling of a living world. Like with engravings, books would probably have not so much practical value as aesthetic value, although I also vouch for training manuals to help skill gain. Maybe there could even be some kind of combined school/public library type activity zone where dwarves could tecach each other or study the books stored therein.

(One wonders, though, what would happen if the librarian of Labortoiled accidentally a Necomancy handbook.)

There could also be the option for idle dwarves to write (and read) poetry or works of fiction, possibly gaining a happy Thought from expressing themselves. Obviously, recording the history of the fortress is also a possible topic for books; they could, for example, detail the story of a particular battle, reign of some noble or the creation of a significant artifact.

Also, literature need not be limited to paper books: it could also be written on stone slabs or earthenware tablets, for example.

[C27]

...Let me think about that. How were literacy rates in the 1300s or 1400s?

Higher than you might think, particularly in cities. Your average farmhand or labourer could muddle through without, but skilled tradesmen, merchants and anyone else who owned property or needed to keep even the most rudimentary financial or inventory records would need at least to be able to read and write a little.

You have to take into account that Medieval Europe was still held back in many ways by the economic disaster that ensued after the fall of the Roman Empire, which would have impacted education (among other things) for generations. In Roman times, we can tell that literacy was very common, because Roman common folk - and even slaves - wrote on practically anything with a flat surface. Much of it was inane comments or memes that would be right at home on certain anonymous image boards today... the Sumerians also appear to have been a highly literate society. Part of that might be attributable to how cheap their writing material (clay tablets) was to make, far more accessible than expensive paper and inks.
In China during the same period, literacy was rare, but for a different reason - it was intentionally restricted to ensure social stratification.

DFworld is its own thing, of course, and our history's unique issues shouldn't necessarily apply.