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Author Topic: multiple squares/zlevel units and half floors  (Read 1094 times)

mathzip

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multiple squares/zlevel units and half floors
« on: February 26, 2012, 01:03:55 pm »

Hi

Having units bigger than one square would add realism (a dragon should take a bit more room than a dwarf)
Huge units should also be more than one zlevel high.
This would add some passage space managment

Moat one zlevel deep and one square long wont be enough anymore
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Telgin

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Re: multiple squares/zlevel units and half floors
« Reply #1 on: February 26, 2012, 01:13:10 pm »

I'm sure Footkerchief will chime in with previous examples of this, but I'm pretty sure Toady has eventual plans for this.  It's going to take a lot of nontrivial work to get it to work though.  There's lots of pathing issues, line of sight, combat... lots of stuff to consider.

It would be nice for the added realism, but I doubt we're going to see it any time soon.

Wagons kind of do this already though, from what I understand.  I haven't played any version of the game with wagons in it though, but they're multi-tile creatures of a sort.  So maybe it's not such a jump to get this put into the game in a more general state.
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peskyninja

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Re: multiple squares/zlevel units and half floors
« Reply #2 on: February 26, 2012, 05:19:12 pm »

Hi

Having units bigger than one square would add realism (a dragon should take a bit more room than a dwarf)
Huge units should also be more than one zlevel high.
This would add some passage space managment

Moat one zlevel deep and one square long wont be enough anymore
It depends of what you call "Realistic". As you may be ware of DF space is a "bit" diferent from our conception of space/distance.
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Ascimator

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Re: multiple squares/zlevel units and half floors
« Reply #3 on: February 26, 2012, 10:05:42 pm »

How about no. DF is all about things like catching a hydra in a Urist-sized cage.
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Fault

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Re: multiple squares/zlevel units and half floors
« Reply #4 on: February 28, 2012, 09:50:20 pm »

I thought of one way certain multi-tile entities could be implimented that would circumvent some of the issues that are usually run into.

let's use dragons as an example, as they are the largest creatures that exist in the game.

One thing is presentation. The only example of multi-tile creatures we have is wagons, and they don't use the W tile as their raws say - their tiles are mapped to look like 3x3 squares of wood. Should the same rough representation be applied to other large creatures, rather than the symbolic presentation that creatures (except for dwarves and vermin, that is) currently have? A green 'D' for a singular dragon is fine contained in one tile, but I think a 6x6 block of D's coming at you would look a little weird, probably be disillusioning, and would bring up the issue of having to map out tiles to certain body parts (and that's not even getting to creatures that could span multiple levels of the Z-axis)

Pathing is an issue as well, if you consider how existing multi-tile creatures navigate. Dragons lack wings in the current raws, so they can't fly over things. And even then, finding a place in your fortress clear enough to land their multi-tile bulk would still be a problem, assuming they won't restrict themselves to flying around shooting fire at you. Destroying everything in their path could be a workaround, but that would probably rely on the implementation of digging siegers. I thought of one way that dragons could exist as multiple-tiled creatures that would not make them restricted to the pathing wagons use to maneuver through an area, while also solving the issue of BLOCK OF D's wagon depiction.

This method allows proper conveyance of their massive size while still allowing them to path as a 1-tiled creature. Picture something out of CENTIPEDE or SNAKE, the old arcade games, where the head of the beast pulls several segments behind it. It moves not as a large block, but a crawling chain of objects. ( ►oooooooo► )
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
The dragon still remains a singular unit - all the pieces being ajacent diagonally or horizontally - but now it can path through winding passages that a 3x3 or 2x2 creature would be stopped by, as each of its segments only takes up one space at a time. This makes it infinitely more deadly than a creature with WAGON PATHING.

this structure also opens up a lot of potential for variance in multi-tiled creatures - randomly generated dragons are known to be a feature intended for eventual inclusion. It would be as simple as a raw-defined structure indicating the order of creature segments and what features be included on them, and then applying a random variable to their arrangement.

obviously this end would be the head, but
 o on segments coming after it
 o any other body part could occur
 o along with the features and abilities accompanying it
 o wings, claws, stingers, web spinerrets, dust/gas/fire jets
 o making every segment of the creature a unique and varied threat
...organs would probably need a place as well.

Think of the possibilities! What if a cage trap falls on the head of a creature, blinding it and restricting its fire breath, but leaving the rest of the body thrashing and unrestrained? What if creatures could grow new heads if one is severed, splitting into separate chains? The application extends beyond dragons, and could easily be applied to other long, snaking creatures, like voracious cave crawlers ( ********° ), or giant earthworms ( ooooOoooo ) (perhaps with a fat segment in the middle for internal organs)

Are their any problems you think might come about from this model?

King Mir

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Re: multiple squares/zlevel units and half floors
« Reply #5 on: February 28, 2012, 10:22:20 pm »

A similar planned feature is boats, which would require a multi tile object to function as a single in game thing. They are planned, and would have a greater inpact on the features of the game than multi tile creatures.



On the suject of how to implement multitile creatures without going the way of boats, I think wagon sized draggons would not be hard to add. We already do the necessary pathfinding for wagons, why can't it work for dragons? A 3x3 dragon with head, fat body and legs would look cool. Combat simulation could be handled seperately.

Fault

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Re: multiple squares/zlevel units and half floors
« Reply #6 on: February 28, 2012, 11:44:43 pm »

yeah, I can kinda see a dragon with a 3x3 body. Like, a more squat monitor lizard kinda thing.

↓↓
00►
↑↑


tiles for four legs, a head, and two body sections? maybe a bit of an extension for the neck so it can aim its breath weapon?

↓↓
00╗
↑↑▼


↓↓
00═►
↑↑


↓↓▲
00╝
↑↑


or if that looks kinda weird, maybe go even bigger


        ↓  ↓
§oooo000════►
        ↑  ↑


this way the main body is 3x3, but the neck and tail move independantly of that, for lashing or aimed attacks. I need to find a better default tile for the feet though. I mean I'd just edit the tileset to have something claw-esque pointing in whatever direction, but a lot of people still go with default ASCII.