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Author Topic: Calm and Cool Progressive Discussion Thread  (Read 1040004 times)

Frumple

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Re: Calm and Cool Progressive Discussion Thread
« Reply #11310 on: January 10, 2016, 06:38:59 pm »

Yeah, sadly the trend is blowing over to the US indeed. Sorry, I had temporary blocked Trump from memory for comfort reasons.
Eh, to be fair to trump, the sentiment was already there, it just tended to simmer mostly below the surface, working through talk radio and whatnot. Trend was here before the cross atlantic stuff started kicking up, and had already been here for quite a while. Mostly just more diffuse, and perhaps less pressure on it.

There is probably some feedback going on both ways, though.

It hasn't gotten to the same level as Europe yet, but it's definitely there.
Probably important to note proportionality, here, ha. US may have a relatively smaller issue with that sort of thing, but "relatively smaller" also means "with a supporting population larger than several european countries" when you're talking about the US. They're just not quite as bunched up.
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k33n

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Re: Calm and Cool Progressive Discussion Thread
« Reply #11311 on: January 10, 2016, 07:20:30 pm »

... mart, in case you haven't noticed, we've actually got a fairly substantial amount of support over here for fairly rabid racist/populist rhetoric. Probably not as organized or concentrated -- and I'd blame that, at least, on geography more than polarization -- but we definitely get a substantial amount of people in our political positions that run on more or less the same sort of platform. It's not really a side issue, unfortunately.

Not racism, actually, because the issue religion, not race.
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Rolepgeek

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Re: Calm and Cool Progressive Discussion Thread
« Reply #11312 on: January 10, 2016, 07:23:52 pm »

Since when did protesting alongside a group mean that you're supporting them? Within the context of a particular issue, anyone who agrees with you is your ally. The alternative is that no groups would form at all, because there's no way you could get enough people who agree on everything.
If only that were true.

I'm not trying to be snarky here. Just, honestly, that's not how it works. My ally is people who are on my side on an issue, but just because I like sci fi doesn't mean I like Orson Scott Card. The group's beliefs aren't the variables in this instance, the invidual's are. Positions on issues cluster for many reasons, but a large part of it is signalling, social interactions, tribal relations, and the subconscious part of your mind that calculates all this and adjusts the conscious mind accordingly. You want to fit in, so to enable groups to form, your mind sweeps aside some of the issues you disagree with them on. If you grow up in it, usually it shapes the way you view those issues. The conscious mind evolved to lie. To yourself so you can lie better to others, primarily (lies are more believable when the person telling them thinks they're true). It's why we like stories so much. We function off narrative. Fiction is a lie that we choose to believe for a short period of time. Willing suspension of disbelief. Groupthink is a thing. "With us or against us" is a thought process used consciously by your opponents to refer to what you do, and subconsciously by the tribe to pick who's part of it.

((sidequestion: who gives a shit whether the bloodiest war was a intrastate or interstate? why does that make any difference?))
((on similar but still unrelated topic: actually there's been a couple of studies about the way farming rice versus wheat shapes relationships; you need a village to grow rice, you need a family to grow wheat. The one is more communal and social, and the other is more analytical and individual))

Loud Whisper, if Europe really does go to shit from a few million immigrants coming in (compared to what, 500 million population Europe total?) and people being prejudiced (multiculturalism has failed because people are still intolerant after a massive influx of refugees coming from a place in turmoil? (Turmoil and stress helping cause violence and criminal behavior?)), I will acknowledge your rhetoric as being correct. My guess is more along the lines of yeah, crisis, and yeah, it sucks, but the world rarely ends. It ends forever even more rarely.

Though, if you're recommending dealing with the crisis at it's source (that is, kicking ISIS's door in with tanks and stealth bombers), I would agree whole-heartedly.

Seriously, fuck all this refugee shit, make the place into less of a hellhole so they don't need to run away. The less people in actual need, the harder it will be for people in false need to get through, because we can afford to be more rigorous. Goddamn, we spend shittons on military, use it.

And k33n, that's great to say on the surface, but until you can back it up, there's a pretty decent argument for 'it's both, actually, but one is considered more legitimate than the other'.
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Loud Whispers

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Re: Calm and Cool Progressive Discussion Thread
« Reply #11313 on: January 10, 2016, 07:26:34 pm »

Man, I think there's a Houellebecq book that describes pretty much what you're envisioning.
I only know him as an edgy French novelist who wrote about Lovecraft after wikipediaing' him.
Quote
Literary critics have labeled Michel Houellebecq's novels "vulgar", "pamphlet literature" and "pornography"; he has been accused of obscenity, racism, misogyny and Islamophobia.
Sounds like a class act. I'm assuming you're just dismissing everything I said as obscenity, racism, misogyny and Islamophobia? So be it, if that is your rebuttal I have nothing to say to bad labels except blathering shitposts; I have long not cared for such labels. I let arguments stand on their own feet, not those of those saying them. It was quite amusing searching my old posts on when I first picked up on the crisis, you can find posts from 2013 by me where I am a good progressive in favour of multiculturalism, haha. It was before the revelation that my country's progressive parties, the ones I supported, had in turn supported some heinous things. I need not repeat myself. Reading my posts you would be surprised to find I am not anti-immigration, but no one cares for what my opinions are; there is no merit in knowing.
I do not much care for what your elites do to your country, neither of us can do anything to stop it. This is all talk and watch.

Oh and I had promised to look into this Cologne crap, I had wondered if this was the manufacturing of Stormfront or such as people in this thread raised concerns with the wording of the news articles and such, but my search was brief and Merkel's confirmed it and proposed tougher laws for deporting immigrants. How quickly the moral highground did fall like pillars of salt. When immigrants do rape your women, do you back down on feminism or immigration? Evidently you serve neither and let it all combust on its own.
Sweden's foreign minister has gone so far as to say:
"I think most people feel that we cannot maintain a system where perhaps 190,000 people will arrive every year. In the long run, our system will collapse. And that welcome is not going to receive popular support. I have to admit that there have been moments recently of very great disappointment. I have heard statements from [EU] member states that have been completely astonishing and very discouraging."
And I must say I was more optimistic than the Swedes, I thought their replacement would not necessitate collapse. I suppose this is a time for surprises. Kind of like when that Swedish girl was raped by refugees, fled only to be raped again around the corner and court documents revealed one said rather clearly "I'm gonna fuck you little Swedish girl". One of them avoided deportation by claiming to be Syrian. And then "antiracist" Swedes rallied to defend them. Ah. Well.
At least in Germany the sexual assaults were only in Cologne, Hamburg and Stuttgart...
Quote
What is particularly disturbing is that the attacks appear to have been organised. Around 1,000 young men arrived in large groups, seemingly with the specific intention of carrying out attacks on women.
Germany has actually made Daily Mail headlines real. I suppose there's nothing more symbolic than a German woman being raped in front of Cologne Cathedral beneath the fireworks and overstretched police. Is this what Merkel meant when she said Germany was losing her "social centre?"
The most depressing thing is that for Bay12 I only ever use conservative estimates from left-wing progressive sources for the express reason that the estimates given by right-wing sources could never be believed. Who would've ever considered the Guardian would one day be reporting 1,500,000 a year for Germany? Oh well, it's all thoroughly depressing. I am becoming quite desensitized to the sheer scale of what has been happening from London to Frankfurt and Stockholm. I suppose that's depressing too, this has all just turned into numbers of people who do not matter because they rest too low on the progressive stack.

On a more, well not uplifting note, but certainly more neutral note - what do you (plural) lot think Germany can do in response to this? Curfews on national holidays? Hire more police somehow? What shall be done with women arming themselves? What shall be done with the armed neighbourhood watches? The rise of neo-nazi or far-right groups? The rise of conflicting Ethnic Immigrant and Islamic groups? The great ticking timebomb of police officers joining pegida?
There must be ~something~ Germany must be able to do irregardless of their immigration.

Helgoland

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Re: Calm and Cool Progressive Discussion Thread
« Reply #11314 on: January 10, 2016, 07:29:15 pm »

Sounds like a class act. I'm assuming you're just dismissing everything I said as obscenity, racism, misogyny and Islamophobia? So be it, if that is your rebuttal I have nothing to say to bad labels except blathering shitposts; I have long not cared for such labels.
Naah, I just wanted to make that remark. I've never read anything by the guy, but as a rule artists who people feel the need to call obscene, racist, misogynist, and Islamophobic are sufficiently good to have made some enemies. Just look at de Sade, or the guy who painted L'Origine du monde.
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Arguably he's already a progressive, just one in the style of an enlightened Kaiser.
I'm going to do the smart thing here and disengage. This isn't a hill I paticularly care to die on.

k33n

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Re: Calm and Cool Progressive Discussion Thread
« Reply #11315 on: January 10, 2016, 07:34:02 pm »


This is why I believe progressiveness is no longer liberalism and liberalism is no longer progressive.
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Morrigi

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Re: Calm and Cool Progressive Discussion Thread
« Reply #11316 on: January 10, 2016, 07:45:38 pm »

Meanwhile, the number of reported criminal complaints over the Cologne attacks has topped 500, 40% of which were sexual in nature. http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-35277249
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k33n

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Re: Calm and Cool Progressive Discussion Thread
« Reply #11317 on: January 10, 2016, 08:02:31 pm »

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Loud Whispers

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Re: Calm and Cool Progressive Discussion Thread
« Reply #11318 on: January 10, 2016, 08:16:43 pm »

((sidequestion: who gives a shit whether the bloodiest war was a intrastate or interstate? why does that make any difference?))
Because the bloodiest interstate war killed 90 million people spread out across many countries and peoples, the bloodiest civil war killed 90 million people in one concentrated area of destruction, affecting one nation's peoples.

((on similar but still unrelated topic: actually there's been a couple of studies about the way farming rice versus wheat shapes relationships; you need a village to grow rice, you need a family to grow wheat. The one is more communal and social, and the other is more analytical and individual))
https://news.virginia.edu/content/rice-theory-explains-north-south-china-cultural-differences-study-shows
Perhaps. I'm not yet sold. Russia did not grow rice. Also South America has the people most averse to authoritarianism, yet grow the same kinda shit as North America, Tropical Africa and Indonesia. Broad agricultural generalizations aside... I suppose they may be onto something. It is interesting as well with the honour herding theory, where cultures like Arab or Texan culture are very honour concerned and will readily resort to violence to defend it. The agricultural basis is simple; when you herd animals, if someone takes your animals overnight your entire livelihood disappears and you are dead. So to avoid being taken advantage of by someone you defend yourself furiously like the honey badger at any slight to show no weakness and never be taken advantage of.

Loud Whisper, if Europe really does go to shit from a few million immigrants coming in (compared to what, 500 million population Europe total?) and people being prejudiced (multiculturalism has failed because people are still intolerant after a massive influx of refugees coming from a place in turmoil? (Turmoil and stress helping cause violence and criminal behavior?)), I will acknowledge your rhetoric as being correct.
Rolepgeek I have had you bring up these points before.
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And it's quite saddening that every single last shitpost is coming true. You must be more tolerant, you were raped because you were prejudiced and just not tolerant enough.

Though, if you're recommending dealing with the crisis at it's source (that is, kicking ISIS's door in with tanks and stealth bombers), I would agree whole-heartedly.
An insufficient response, but we are thinking alike there.

Seriously, fuck all this refugee shit, make the place into less of a hellhole so they don't need to run away. The less people in actual need, the harder it will be for people in false need to get through, because we can afford to be more rigorous. Goddamn, we spend shittons on military, use it.
You are referring to the USA? The USA is not in the same boat as Europe. The USA can do anything it wants short of nuking Mecca and it really wouldn't affect Americans all that much.
« Last Edit: January 10, 2016, 08:21:40 pm by Loud Whispers »
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Helgoland

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Re: Calm and Cool Progressive Discussion Thread
« Reply #11319 on: January 10, 2016, 08:25:18 pm »

If there was one thing that statement was not it was vague. Admittedly its intended connotation was more than a bit unclear, but I sort of figured that a guy like you would take being compared to Houellebecq as a compliment :P
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Arguably he's already a progressive, just one in the style of an enlightened Kaiser.
I'm going to do the smart thing here and disengage. This isn't a hill I paticularly care to die on.

Loud Whispers

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Re: Calm and Cool Progressive Discussion Thread
« Reply #11320 on: January 10, 2016, 08:33:14 pm »

Neither of us knew his stuff though, and perhaps I have too much learned to expect the worse

Helgoland

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Re: Calm and Cool Progressive Discussion Thread
« Reply #11321 on: January 10, 2016, 08:40:38 pm »

As for a replacement though, I'm afraid I don't know German politics well enough to say who would best succeed her.
Merkel, at least as far as the post of Chancellor of Germany goes.
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The Bay12 postcard club
Arguably he's already a progressive, just one in the style of an enlightened Kaiser.
I'm going to do the smart thing here and disengage. This isn't a hill I paticularly care to die on.
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