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Author Topic: Calm and Cool Progressive Discussion Thread  (Read 1212546 times)

Dutchling

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Re: Calm and Cool Progressive Discussion Thread
« Reply #6990 on: August 03, 2013, 11:09:02 am »

Or a massive bloated military budget. The US spends something like $700 billion on its armed forces. Imagine what $5billion could do for schools in the US and what little effect that would have on the US military?
I don't know. I think a lack of funding isn't to blame, but lack of good teaching methods.
So just give all the money to the military and tell everyone else to improve their methods or GTFO? No more problems ever~
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MonkeyHead

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Re: Calm and Cool Progressive Discussion Thread
« Reply #6991 on: August 03, 2013, 11:12:02 am »

Or a massive bloated military budget. The US spends something like $700 billion on its armed forces. Imagine what $5billion could do for schools in the US and what little effect that would have on the US military?
I don't know. I think a lack of funding isn't to blame, but lack of good teaching methods.

As someone who has done academic research into the education system in the US, I would agree (one size does not fit all). However, $5bil buys a lot of training for existing staff, improved pay packets to employ support staff to free up teacher time , and allows you to employ and retain quality teachers. Moreover, this pays for itself in improved tax revenues through better employment for individuals, less strain on healthcare systems, lower crime, hell, a whole manner of secondary effects.
« Last Edit: August 03, 2013, 11:14:02 am by MonkeyHead »
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kingfisher1112

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Re: Calm and Cool Progressive Discussion Thread
« Reply #6992 on: August 03, 2013, 11:12:48 am »

Or a massive bloated military budget. The US spends something like $700 billion on its armed forces. Imagine what $5billion could do for schools in the US and what little effect that would have on the US military?
I don't know. I think a lack of funding isn't to blame, but lack of good teaching methods.
So just give all the money to the military and tell everyone else to improve their methods or GTFO? No more problems ever~
I'm not saying that all money should go to the military, but education's problems are methodology related.
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I honestly thought this was going to be about veterinarians.
Ermey: 26/4/13

Mrhappyface

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Re: Calm and Cool Progressive Discussion Thread
« Reply #6993 on: August 03, 2013, 11:14:41 am »

I think encouraging cheaper private education institutions would be a good idea.
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Vector

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Re: Calm and Cool Progressive Discussion Thread
« Reply #6994 on: August 03, 2013, 11:24:34 am »

The military has hundreds of years of tradition. Even better, it provides multifaceted benefits. Where the hell is a mechanic going to get work? Simple, the military. Unless you want to subsidise companies into hiring mechanics, it's your best bet. Even better, still have to keep around a military until this " World Peace" thing rocks around. Even better, R&D trickles down all sorts of cool stuff into everyday use.

You act like the number of mechanics we have is an act of god, not something that people actually control.


I'm not saying that all money should go to the military, but education's problems are methodology related.

Your argument is that most school districts in the US have plenty enough money--specifically for things like infrastructure or art programs?
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kingfisher1112

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Re: Calm and Cool Progressive Discussion Thread
« Reply #6995 on: August 03, 2013, 11:26:10 am »

The military has hundreds of years of tradition. Even better, it provides multifaceted benefits. Where the hell is a mechanic going to get work? Simple, the military. Unless you want to subsidise companies into hiring mechanics, it's your best bet. Even better, still have to keep around a military until this " World Peace" thing rocks around. Even better, R&D trickles down all sorts of cool stuff into everyday use.

You act like the number of mechanics we have is an act of god, not something that people actually control.


I'm not saying that all money should go to the military, but education's problems are methodology related.

Your argument is that most school districts in the US have plenty enough money--specifically for things like infrastructure or art programs?
Are art programs necessary? And didn't I state that I didn't think all money should go to the military? I didn't specify whether that 5 bil would be better spent on either.
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I honestly thought this was going to be about veterinarians.
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Loud Whispers

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Re: Calm and Cool Progressive Discussion Thread
« Reply #6996 on: August 03, 2013, 11:28:49 am »

Or a massive bloated military budget. The US spends something like $700 billion on its armed forces. Imagine what $5billion could do for schools in the US and what little effect that would have on the US military?
I don't know. I think a lack of funding isn't to blame, but lack of good teaching methods.
A lack of respect for teachers alongside respectable teachers is a large part of it. Throwing money at schools isn't going to change that. America has a long standing culture of knowledge seeking to be detestable.

Or a massive bloated military budget. The US spends something like $700 billion on its armed forces. Imagine what $5billion could do for schools in the US and what little effect that would have on the US military?
I don't know. I think a lack of funding isn't to blame, but lack of good teaching methods.
So just give all the money to the military and tell everyone else to improve their methods or GTFO? No more problems ever~
If the military's budget was cut the money saved would probably just get turned into more tax cuts for the rich. The US military could be just as effective with much less cost. What was the last military sinkhole for cash? The raptor was it?

Are art programs necessary? And didn't I state that I didn't think all money should go to the military? I didn't specify whether that 5 bil would be better spent on either.
It was in the headlines recently here that despite all these cuts to things including defence, there would be no cuts to art programs.

This shit is important.

kingfisher1112

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Re: Calm and Cool Progressive Discussion Thread
« Reply #6997 on: August 03, 2013, 11:34:05 am »

First off, make a tank that doesn't have a FUCKING GAS TURBINE WHICH REQUIRES A REFUEL EVERY 7 HOURS! That'll save some cash.
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I honestly thought this was going to be about veterinarians.
Ermey: 26/4/13

Vector

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Re: Calm and Cool Progressive Discussion Thread
« Reply #6998 on: August 03, 2013, 11:41:40 am »

Are art programs necessary? And didn't I state that I didn't think all money should go to the military? I didn't specify whether that 5 bil would be better spent on either.

Yes, they are.  Art and literature help people develop ethics, aesthetics, expressiveness, compassion, empathy, imagination, and a whole long list of qualities that are necessary for a functioning community--many of which are crucial for the development of effective engineering programs, as well.  Trust me, I'm a math student.  I've seen a wide variety of examples first-hand of those who are good in technical areas but elect to totally neglect their cultural education.
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"The question of the usefulness of poetry arises only in periods of its decline, while in periods of its flowering, no one doubts its total uselessness." - Boris Pasternak

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kingfisher1112

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Re: Calm and Cool Progressive Discussion Thread
« Reply #6999 on: August 03, 2013, 11:47:33 am »

Are art programs necessary? And didn't I state that I didn't think all money should go to the military? I didn't specify whether that 5 bil would be better spent on either.

Yes, they are.  Art and literature help people develop ethics, aesthetics, expressiveness, compassion, empathy, imagination, and a whole long list of qualities that are necessary for a functioning community--many of which are crucial for the development of effective engineering programs, as well.  Trust me, I'm a math student.  I've seen a wide variety of examples first-hand of those who are good in technical areas but elect to totally neglect their cultural education.
Developing ethics: I.e the ones that are deemed "ok" by the government.
Aesthetics: Well, I don't like modern architecture. Taking classes in architecture won't change that.
Expressiveness: Schoolyard, with their friends...?
Compassion: Same.
Empathy: Same.
Imagination: Art does not have a monopoly on imagination.
Trust me, I'm an art student. Art is not as valuable as other areas, and should not be prioritised. More of a specialist program thing than every kid ever getting it. And even then, what of the kid expresses himself through say, racist caricatures? It's a minefield of potential legal battles.
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I honestly thought this was going to be about veterinarians.
Ermey: 26/4/13

MonkeyHead

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Re: Calm and Cool Progressive Discussion Thread
« Reply #7000 on: August 03, 2013, 11:49:58 am »

My head is now firmly being hit against my desk. I am sorry, but I disagree so very strongly with so much of that last post, I dont even know how to begin wording a rebuttal.
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kingfisher1112

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Re: Calm and Cool Progressive Discussion Thread
« Reply #7001 on: August 03, 2013, 11:52:14 am »

My head is now firmly being hit against my desk. I am sorry, but I disagree so very strongly with so much of that last post, I dont even know how to begin wording a rebuttal.
Please do actually word a response other than " LOLO I'M HEADESKING"
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I honestly thought this was going to be about veterinarians.
Ermey: 26/4/13

Loud Whispers

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Re: Calm and Cool Progressive Discussion Thread
« Reply #7002 on: August 03, 2013, 11:54:19 am »

First off, make a tank that doesn't have a FUCKING GAS TURBINE WHICH REQUIRES A REFUEL EVERY 7 HOURS! That'll save some cash.
And yet for some reason they still decided they needed to scrap railgun research, because $150M sure is wasteful in the face of tens of billions of dollars... Wasted.

Yes, they are.  Art and literature help people develop ethics, aesthetics, expressiveness, compassion, empathy, imagination, and a whole long list of qualities that are necessary for a functioning community--many of which are crucial for the development of effective engineering programs, as well.  Trust me, I'm a math student.  I've seen a wide variety of examples first-hand of those who are good in technical areas but elect to totally neglect their cultural education.
It's arguable that the arts not only express how we think, but also define how we think. No arts, no thinking.

Developing ethics: I.e the ones that are deemed "ok" by the government.
Not art

Aesthetics: Well, I don't like modern architecture. Taking classes in architecture won't change that.
No comment, as I sit in my picturesque house surrounded by a city of brutalist, renaissance and post-modern architecture. A POX ON YOU
But seriously, you're wrong on this one for the lesser reasons.

Expressiveness: Schoolyard, with their friends...?
This one is important. Is it seriously a thing where students in America eat lunch in class and don't socialize?

Compassion: Same.
Empathy: Same.
Yeah, fuck humanity.

Imagination: Art does not have a monopoly on imagination.
Ideas are easy, expressing them can sometimes take some help. What should teachers be able to do?

Trust me, I'm an art student. Art is not as valuable as other areas, and should not be prioritised.
True. Neither should it be neglected.

More of a specialist program thing than every kid ever getting it. And even then, what of the kid expresses himself through say, racist caricatures? It's a minefield of potential legal battles.
Ben Garrison pls

Vector

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Re: Calm and Cool Progressive Discussion Thread
« Reply #7003 on: August 03, 2013, 11:58:08 am »

Some kids don't have friends; some kids are relentlessly bullied or ignored; some kids need the support of an arts program (theater, anyone?) to get the skills that would help them leave that situation.  Some kids are taught violence at home and need to be taught something else at school, which they usually won't pick up from their peers.  Some kids learn better from reading and imagining than they do from real-life situations, and unlike developing skills on the playground, art programs teach you to channel and reflect your emotions in a nuanced, thoughtful way.  They give you time to reflect that you don't get in the heat of the moment.

Developing aesthetics doesn't mean "develop my aesthetics," it means "understand what goes into aesthetics so you can choose your own.  Also, what I mean is that developing literacy allows one to access a body of written information from which one can develop one's own ethical understanding.  One doesn't use the skills one learns in school solely in government-mandated ways.

Also, maybe this will help you understand, though you don't exactly seem anti-violence.
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MetalSlimeHunt

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Re: Calm and Cool Progressive Discussion Thread
« Reply #7004 on: August 03, 2013, 11:58:32 am »

Are art programs necessary? And didn't I state that I didn't think all money should go to the military? I didn't specify whether that 5 bil would be better spent on either.

Yes, they are.  Art and literature help people develop ethics, aesthetics, expressiveness, compassion, empathy, imagination, and a whole long list of qualities that are necessary for a functioning community--many of which are crucial for the development of effective engineering programs, as well.  Trust me, I'm a math student.  I've seen a wide variety of examples first-hand of those who are good in technical areas but elect to totally neglect their cultural education.
Silly Vector, culture and painting don't real. The only thing we need to teach our children are math, science, and football. It was good enough for your parents so it will be good enough for you.
Developing ethics: I.e the ones that are deemed "ok" by the government.
Uh, no. That's what happens when you don't teach ethics. Teaching ethics isn't about telling you what is good or bad, it is about teaching people how they can determine on their own what is good or bad.
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Aesthetics: Well, I don't like modern architecture. Taking classes in architecture won't change that.
Aesthetics is not architecture. Aesthetics is about the quantification of sensory input and output, which would include architecture alongside hundreds of other things.
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Expressiveness: Schoolyard, with their friends...?
Compassion: Same.
Empathy: Same.
Kingfisher, allow me to reveal to you a great secret. People do not know things before they are taught about them. While a person can certainly develop pro-social qualities without outside help, a child could also theoretically learn algebra without outside help as well. The schools are around to expedite the process of learning.

A child might have compassion and empathy for others, but are they going to know how to express that healthily? Are they going to know the psychological and sociological implications of their interactions with others? Are they in the mindset of seeing others as being real people, equal to them (even if they accept it intellectually, they may not truly accept it in their actions)?

School is not just about learning how to find x. It is not even about learning things so you can get a job with them, despite what some people might tell you. School is about learning how to live as a person who can stand on their own merits in our societies. And as the name implies, societies are primarily social entities.
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Imagination: Art does not have a monopoly on imagination.
But it is a catalyst. Having a flexible imagination may not necessarily solve your problems, but it certainly increases the possibility that you can imagine a solution you otherwise might not.
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