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Author Topic: Calm and Cool Progressive Discussion Thread  (Read 1246997 times)

Descan

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Re: PoH's Calm and Cool Progressive Discussion Thread
« Reply #2460 on: July 27, 2012, 08:03:39 pm »

Honestly, I'm split on gun-control. On the one hand, I don't see why people need assault rifles in every day life. On the other hand, handguns and semi-auto or preferably manual rifles I can understand. On the OTHER hand, I'd rather there be at least some registration of gun owners. On the (fourth?) hand, I can not abide some of the rhetoric used in gun-control debates, so I avoid them.
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Nadaka

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Re: PoH's Calm and Cool Progressive Discussion Thread
« Reply #2461 on: July 27, 2012, 08:06:31 pm »

Our ruling class doesn't keep control with guns. Fighting apples with oranges, if that's your logic.


Yes I just mixed two entirely unrelated sayings. Mwahaha.

You are right, they don't keep control with guns, yet. Things have not gotten quite bad enough, democracy isn't dead yet.

If you go all the way with the 'right to bear arms', then everyone has a right to all sorts of weapons. 

Landmines and rocketlaunchers for all! 
In fact, in order to ensure we have a militia that can protect us from random shooters, we need mandatory concealed carry rocket launcher permits for people.
/logicalextremebasedonwording

I think the logical distinction in terms of self defense is that the typical firearm can be aimed, and against specific targets with minimal collateral damage under many circumstances. Explosives, and fully automatic weapons can not. So their restriction is allowable.
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kaijyuu

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Re: PoH's Calm and Cool Progressive Discussion Thread
« Reply #2462 on: July 27, 2012, 08:07:57 pm »

Our ruling class doesn't keep control with guns. Fighting apples with oranges, if that's your logic.


Yes I just mixed two entirely unrelated sayings. Mwahaha.

You are right, they don't keep control with guns, yet. Things have not gotten quite bad enough, democracy isn't dead yet.
"Yet."

Have a violent revolution in mind, or just wanting to play it safe?


I should note that the US military is getting quite a bit of practice on dealing with violent civilian uprisings right now, so I wonder how effective we'll be against them in the future, second amendment or no.
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Nadaka

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Re: PoH's Calm and Cool Progressive Discussion Thread
« Reply #2463 on: July 27, 2012, 08:12:53 pm »

Our ruling class doesn't keep control with guns. Fighting apples with oranges, if that's your logic.


Yes I just mixed two entirely unrelated sayings. Mwahaha.

You are right, they don't keep control with guns, yet. Things have not gotten quite bad enough, democracy isn't dead yet.
"Yet."

Have a violent revolution in mind, or just wanting to play it safe?

Playing it safe. Disarmament is common in exploitative class based societies such as fuedal Japan, pre-revolutionary france, pre-revolutionary US, and numerous other case.
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Moghjubar

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Re: PoH's Calm and Cool Progressive Discussion Thread
« Reply #2464 on: July 27, 2012, 08:26:14 pm »

If you go all the way with the 'right to bear arms', then everyone has a right to all sorts of weapons. 

Landmines and rocketlaunchers for all! 
In fact, in order to ensure we have a militia that can protect us from random shooters, we need mandatory concealed carry rocket launcher permits for people.
/logicalextremebasedonwording

I think the logical distinction in terms of self defense is that the typical firearm can be aimed, and against specific targets with minimal collateral damage under many circumstances. Explosives, and fully automatic weapons can not. So their restriction is allowable.

Many circumstances indeed.  However, firefights by nature are typically chaotic, just look at friendly fire statistics.
As far as guns themselves, they are a tube which contains an explosive that propels a shaped piece of shrapnel in a single direction.  Said direction is based upon who is aiming the device... which could be the average person, or someone whos even stupider than that.

A landmine on the other hand could be rigged to do a shaped detonation and only specifically against whoever triggered it, with a very specific placement on your property that you want to defend.  With proper tech, you could even RFID chip people whom you don't want blown up.  Etc etc, arguments arguments, blah blah blah.

The trick is, there are laws regarding arms even though if the 2nd amendment could not be approached at all, there would be none.  We certainly don't want firearms in certain locations, and certainly make it illegal for prisoners to have them.  Its not so much of holding the 2nd amendment up on a pedestal because we DO have limitations that chip away at it (both its wording and its interpretation).  Limitations that sometimes people even agree on.

That said, there are places in this country where not having a gun (shotgun or rifle) can be detrimental to your health.  We use said things for hunting, or defense against feral beasts (though sadly, usually for herpdederp I kin shoot sumtin).  Would throwing dynamite into a lake be good for fishing?  Well.... people have done it, and it sorta does work, but its dangerous, stupid, and harmful.  For such things, we typically would want to do the necessary gear only and not overkill, and overkill is specifically the problem here:  things which are designed more for killing large amounts of people rather than use as tools and self defense.

Note: remember, SWAT teams need the AP bullets due to http://www.angelfire.com/super/killmurderhog/caligunmen.html (sorry about the source).
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Leafsnail

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Re: PoH's Calm and Cool Progressive Discussion Thread
« Reply #2465 on: July 27, 2012, 08:46:59 pm »

In a civil war clearly the good guys will have the guns while the bad guys will be crushed by their superior weaponry.  It wouldn't lead to a general escalation of violence due to both sides being better armed or anything.
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Nadaka

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Re: PoH's Calm and Cool Progressive Discussion Thread
« Reply #2466 on: July 27, 2012, 08:50:13 pm »

In a civil war clearly the good guys will have the guns while the bad guys will be crushed by their superior weaponry.  It wouldn't lead to a general escalation of violence due to both sides being better armed or anything.

And the alternative to everyone being armed is having only the wrong people armed.
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Re: PoH's Calm and Cool Progressive Discussion Thread
« Reply #2467 on: July 27, 2012, 08:58:56 pm »

Was it... was it this thread or some other that pointed out that the actual impact of the 2nd amendment in a theoretical second American civil war scenario would be pretty close to nonexistent?

Th'face of modern warfare's made most civilian weapons, especially in the hands of the more-or-less untrained, more or less meaningless. I mean, you could do a little bit with guerrilla stuff, but it really wouldn't mean jack in the face of an actual military force, especially one integrated with a modern military support structure (artillery, air, etc.). Calling the second amendment a method of resisting tyranny is... kinda' silly, nowadays. Original intent, maybe, but the combat effectiveness of the sort of militia the second amendment would involve arming is pretty piss poor these days.

If any uprising's going to occur and do more than jack-all in the face of actual physical oppression, it'll involve a military schism, not a civilian uprising. Arming the citizenry just doesn't really do much (besides jack up the death toll) anymore, especially with the stuff that's accessible by the general American population.

I guess it's a bit of a psychological comfort, though, even though the actual capability to resist is effectively nil? Illusion of the capability to resist might be an effective tool of control, honestly...
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Leafsnail

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Re: PoH's Calm and Cool Progressive Discussion Thread
« Reply #2468 on: July 27, 2012, 09:02:59 pm »

And the alternative to everyone being armed is having only the wrong people armed.
So you are literally agreeing with my sarcastic statement.
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Nadaka

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Re: PoH's Calm and Cool Progressive Discussion Thread
« Reply #2469 on: July 27, 2012, 09:05:24 pm »

Frumple: You do have something of a point, and it could well be why the conservatives have not endorsed disarmament. But I wouldn't discount an insurgency action.

And the alternative to everyone being armed is having only the wrong people armed.
So you are literally agreeing with my sarcastic statement.

No.
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Leafsnail

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Re: PoH's Calm and Cool Progressive Discussion Thread
« Reply #2470 on: July 27, 2012, 09:06:39 pm »

I guess it's kindof the flipside of my statement in that guns will magically gravitate towards the evil side if we do ban them then.
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Nadaka

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Re: PoH's Calm and Cool Progressive Discussion Thread
« Reply #2471 on: July 27, 2012, 10:31:07 pm »

If you're a freak about anything, it'd be calling anyone who disagrees with you a dumbass (though apologies if they're actually being dumb :P ).

In this case, I am fairly certain that I am being accurate with the dumb ass argument.

The specific statement was "Why did he shoot all those people? Because he bought guns!"
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Sheb

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Re: PoH's Calm and Cool Progressive Discussion Thread
« Reply #2472 on: July 27, 2012, 10:39:59 pm »

Technically, it's a lot harder to shoot people with your bare hands.  :P
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Frumple

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Re: PoH's Calm and Cool Progressive Discussion Thread
« Reply #2473 on: July 27, 2012, 10:43:45 pm »

At least and get the hands back in anything resembling a workable condition. Assuming they could be reattached at all after being fired at someone.
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Moghjubar

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Re: PoH's Calm and Cool Progressive Discussion Thread
« Reply #2474 on: July 27, 2012, 11:10:09 pm »

It could be worse you know.
 
Rocket From the Sockets!!!!
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