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Author Topic: Calm and Cool Progressive Discussion Thread  (Read 820352 times)

Frumple

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Re: Calm and Cool Progressive Discussion Thread
« Reply #6960 on: August 03, 2013, 12:09:46 pm »

Or a massive bloated military budget. The US spends something like $700 billion on its armed forces. Imagine what an extra $5billion could do for secondary age (11-18) schools in the US and what little effect that would have on the US military?
Between 1 and 1.4 trillion in 2012, overall. Federal spending was pegged at 681 billion according to the source (which I found here -- it's an .xls file. You can see the notes on the wikipedia part to see where the discrepancy's coming from.), and education at 91 billion -- but only 39 billion of that going to K-12 education (including vocational training) and 20 to higher education. It'd take less than a 10% (~8.6%) cut to the military spending listed there to have flat out doubled primary et al and higher education spending in 2012. Total spending on what's normally called welfare here (unemployment, food and housing assistance -- only one of which, unemployment, involves "just handing out money for fun") was around 200 billion. You'd have to cut that by better than a forth to double education spending. For what it's worth, we spend more than half as much on veteran benefits as we do on overall welfare (of the sort mentioned: ~120 billion vs ~200 billion).

Plain cash disbursement (especially to folks that aren't unemployed) isn't actually much of th'states' welfare spending, and is more or less a pittance of the overall budget. The big hits are military, medicare, and social security... and at least one of those we could probably stand to loosen up on, just a titch.

As for that five billion. Would be an 8.4% increase in the 2012 education budget for primary et al and higher education, in exchange for a .7% decrease in defense spending. 2.4% decrease in welfare spending, 4% decrease in veteran spending, if you were to draw from one of those, instead. .6% if you were to roll veteran spending into overall military.

Which... should probably help understand why there's this certain subset of folks who want to cut military spending and redirect it into, y'know, other things. As th'states' spending goes, military is one of the less directly necessary or beneficial things money's being spent on, and so much is being spent on it the nation could get significant gains (budgetary, in any case), in other areas. Areas that are considerably more likely to have notable benefit back home, as opposed to pissing off the rest of the world and crippling a fair number of our youth. Being fair, also fending off some of the people we've pissed off, but... yeah.
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Vector

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Re: Calm and Cool Progressive Discussion Thread
« Reply #6961 on: August 03, 2013, 12:10:59 pm »

I agree that in an ideal world where we could count on the objectivity of the teacher, some sort of theological education should be mandatory at this juncture of our history.

Or, at the very least, what I had--a project where we had to go to a church we don't normally worship at, attend a service, interview a pastor/reverend/priest/religious dude, do research, and write a 15-page paper.  For my particular class it was a mandatory piece of 8th grade, along with developing a personal project on which we spent at least 70 hours.


Not a lot more. They accomplished incredible things, but they can't just " More tanks! More troops!" They could make lots of incredible things, but just not really incredible things.

. . .

I think you should examine your biases.
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Dutchling

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Re: Calm and Cool Progressive Discussion Thread
« Reply #6962 on: August 03, 2013, 12:12:42 pm »

Not a lot more. They accomplished incredible things, but they can't just " More tanks! More troops!" They could make lots of incredible things, but just not really incredible things.

. . .

I think you should examine your biases.
Found them.
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MonkeyHead

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Re: Calm and Cool Progressive Discussion Thread
« Reply #6963 on: August 03, 2013, 12:12:55 pm »

My head is now firmly being hit against my desk. I am sorry, but I disagree so very strongly with so much of that last post, I dont even know how to begin wording a rebuttal.
Please do actually word a response other than " LOLO I'M HEADESKING"

Let me try then. Art, as in the creation of music, sculpture, painting, poetry and literature, has been humanities means of comminicating its desires, fears, thoughts feelings and emotions through the ages - from cave paintings up to bisected sharks in formaldehyde. Art tells a story of the place it was made and who by. As a scientist I dont claim to understand art or the process by which it is made, but I understand its purpose and benefits. Art allows for the establishment of cultural identites and practices, and the exchange of these ideas through the medium by which works are created. Art spills over into science, enigeering and the media. Things like the traits you claim need no fostering in this manner are not inherent properties of humanity - they are fostered and tought by the community an individual finds themselves in, fostered by both the people the interact with and the substance of thier society - its works of art, its pop music, its buildings, its myths and legends. Its morals. Should an individual find that they fit with what they are exposed to, then fab. If they dont, then by giving them a footing in these schools of thought allows them to identify why they do not, and to go off and find a sector where they do or to go create thier own identity. Ethics are not set in stone rules. They are guidelines as to decide how to think, and are as artificial a construct as a bridge. People will not know how to choose to act right if they can not identify what is right and wrong. Every young person deserves to be exposed to a range of science, art, music, engineering, math, sport in order to appreciate humanity, and to decide what is best for them. This is a rambling collection of ideas that I have not put much time into, and I am typing on the fly as I think, but I think my feelings are clear.
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10ebbor10

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Re: Calm and Cool Progressive Discussion Thread
« Reply #6964 on: August 03, 2013, 12:13:49 pm »

Well, if I recall correctly, the old sixties roadmap would have Humans on the moon, in a pretty large colonies, and outposts on Mars. With airbreathing turbines to allow for cheaper rocketry, and planetoid mining to cut costs.

I can't find it though.
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kingfisher1112

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Re: Calm and Cool Progressive Discussion Thread
« Reply #6965 on: August 03, 2013, 12:14:27 pm »

Not a lot more. They accomplished incredible things, but they can't just " More tanks! More troops!" They could make lots of incredible things, but just not really incredible things.

. . .

I think you should examine your biases.
Found them.
I think I'm just fine with my biases thank you.

OH GOD PLEASE LET ME POST
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MetalSlimeHunt

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Re: Calm and Cool Progressive Discussion Thread
« Reply #6966 on: August 03, 2013, 12:17:04 pm »

Well, simple. Replace the military with another national organization that has a proud tradition, invents awesome stuff, and has a bit more overlap with civilian life, as well as not being outdated when world PeaceTM rolls around. [Penny for NASA anyone]
Seriously, I can't even imagine what NASA might have finished by now if they had the military's level of funding.
Not a lot more. They accomplished incredible things, but they can't just " More tanks! More troops!" They could make lots of incredible things, but just not really incredible things.
What? What in the hell does that even mean?

And no, they could do a lot more incredible things. Like solidifying the continued existence of humanity, for example. You know, small feats like that.

Also, all of this suggests that they probably do good things for technological innovation.
Well, if I recall correctly, the old sixties roadmap would have Humans on the moon, in a pretty large colonies, and outposts on Mars. With airbreathing turbines to allow for cheaper rocketry, and planetoid mining to cut costs.

I can't find it though.
I remember that and cannot seem to find it as well.
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kingfisher1112

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Re: Calm and Cool Progressive Discussion Thread
« Reply #6967 on: August 03, 2013, 12:20:44 pm »

Well, simple. Replace the military with another national organization that has a proud tradition, invents awesome stuff, and has a bit more overlap with civilian life, as well as not being outdated when world PeaceTM rolls around. [Penny for NASA anyone]
Seriously, I can't even imagine what NASA might have finished by now if they had the military's level of funding.
Not a lot more. They accomplished incredible things, but they can't just " More tanks! More troops!" They could make lots of incredible things, but just not really incredible things.
What? What in the hell does that even mean?

And no, they could do a lot more incredible things. Like solidifying the continued existence of humanity, for example. You know, small feats like that.

Also, all of this suggests that they probably do good things for technological innovation.
Well, if I recall correctly, the old sixties roadmap would have Humans on the moon, in a pretty large colonies, and outposts on Mars. With airbreathing turbines to allow for cheaper rocketry, and planetoid mining to cut costs.

I can't find it though.
I remember that and cannot seem to find it as well.
While that's all good, I think military R&D can claim quite the list of achievements as well. Anti-sleep pills, more practical lasers, better and better understanding of radar, waves in general, psychological advances, all sorts of medical advancements, and some other things I can't think of right now.
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I honestly thought this was going to be about veterinarians.
Ermey: 26/4/13

MonkeyHead

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Re: Calm and Cool Progressive Discussion Thread
« Reply #6968 on: August 03, 2013, 12:22:29 pm »

Yes, but in general these are used to kill people with greater efficiency, not to better humanity.
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MetalSlimeHunt

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Re: Calm and Cool Progressive Discussion Thread
« Reply #6969 on: August 03, 2013, 12:23:38 pm »

Indeed they do, and it is for that reason that R&D is the one aspect of the military I do not seek massive cuts in.

Regardless, military tech advancement is still inferior to space tech advancement in that the former is ultimately all for the cause of, you know, war.
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Quote from: Thomas Paine
To argue with a man who has renounced the use and authority of reason, and whose philosophy consists in holding humanity in contempt, is like administering medicine to the dead, or endeavoring to convert an atheist by scripture.
Quote
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kingfisher1112

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Re: Calm and Cool Progressive Discussion Thread
« Reply #6970 on: August 03, 2013, 12:24:10 pm »

Yes, but in general these are used to kill people with greater efficiency, not to better humanity.
Yes, but it does trickle down, and the competition of an arms race is much better than that of a space race. One, prestige is at stake, the other, hundreds of thousands of lives.
Oh yes, maybe we should have another space race! Drives forward public support of NASA funding among other benefits.
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I honestly thought this was going to be about veterinarians.
Ermey: 26/4/13

Loud Whispers

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Re: Calm and Cool Progressive Discussion Thread
« Reply #6971 on: August 03, 2013, 12:31:05 pm »

Quote
Not art
Art is an expression of ethics, emotions. It's not something that can be taught. However, meddling in early ethical development can lead to problems. I.E, what if a socialist teacher was to show only protest art to a class? Shape their future political views?
It's possible, but that's why parents should get involved to make sure the trust invested in a teacher is well spent and teachers should be trained and screened to be teachers, not shills. If you're not going to take the chance to better the next generation for fear that someone's going to abuse the system somewhere no matter what, you're declaring the venture forfeit without actually viewing its merits.
Quote
No comment, as I sit in my picturesque house surrounded by a city of brutalist, renaissance and post-modern architecture. A POX ON YOU
But seriously, you're wrong on this one for the lesser reasons.
Dirty peasant. Surrealism is where it's at. Melting Big Ben at twelve bong? Wonderful.
Actually, I would disagree. Due to indoctrination by socialist art teachers...
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
I DECLARE MIGHT OF SOVIET REALISM SUPREME
Here I was saying simply how the schoolyard, socialising, all that can do wanders for those two attributes.
True enough. Art for empathy's really just an additional benefit, not a basis for implementation.
Quote
Ideas are easy, expressing them can sometimes take some help. What should teachers be able to do?
That's the thing. I don't know. Maybe a centralised curriculum from some art authority to prevent government meddling.
Like a board of education founded by teachers? That'd be how I would do it, at least from the start.
Not a lot more. They accomplished incredible things, but they can't just " More tanks! More troops!" They could make lots of incredible things, but just not really incredible things.
NASA has sent a rover where? :P
The only reason why a spacebot harvesting minerals with lasers seems normal is because NASA has made it seem normal to us. They're really underfunded.

Yes, but in general these are used to kill people with greater efficiency, not to better humanity.
Technology sought after to better kill humanity will also result in technology sought after to better counter the technology used to kill humanity. Arms races result in leaps of innovation and applied technology.
Generally R&D is an area of institutions that I would put as much as would be sensible into, no matter if it be say; medical or military. To say all military R&D is for killing is a massive overstatement, a lot of this stuff will end up in the civilian markets and a lot of our survival orientated tech. comes from guys with guns, glasses and labcoats.

kingfisher1112

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Re: Calm and Cool Progressive Discussion Thread
« Reply #6972 on: August 03, 2013, 12:40:04 pm »

I agree with most of the stuff you posted. I still think that politically charged areas of education should be watched over by external authorities on that subject. I had a brainwashing teacher once. I'm glad I actually began reading up on stuff and learned what she was saying was completely false.

I also think NASA is underfunded, and that it really has no short term goals. It got the wow factor of the rover, the question is now where to next? I reckon helium mining on the moon.
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I honestly thought this was going to be about veterinarians.
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MetalSlimeHunt

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Re: Calm and Cool Progressive Discussion Thread
« Reply #6973 on: August 03, 2013, 12:48:03 pm »

I also think NASA is underfunded, and that it really has no short term goals. It got the wow factor of the rover, the question is now where to next? I reckon helium mining on the moon.
Well, I'm glad to see you're so well informed on NASA mission specs. The rover is not for wow factor. The rover is for the collection of vital data concerning the geological and meteorological status of Mars, data that it would be fortunate to know before sending anybody living there. Radiation levels, pressure and temperature changes, present materials, what it would take to keep a human alive on the red planet.

We aren't even close to helium mining the moon. That's going to take multiple manned and unmanned missions before even being on the radar. Got to go back to the moon, got to survey for H3 deposits, got to have the tech on Earth for that to even be useful to us, got to set up at least a semi-permanent settlement, got to have advanced enough autonomous processors to extract the H3, probably got to have a rail driver on the surface of the Moon to launch that shit to Earth, probably got to have better orbital infrastructure in order to ease the Moon-Earth transition.

Then, if nothing goes wrong, you can go mine helium on the moon.
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Quote from: Thomas Paine
To argue with a man who has renounced the use and authority of reason, and whose philosophy consists in holding humanity in contempt, is like administering medicine to the dead, or endeavoring to convert an atheist by scripture.
Quote
No Gods, No Masters.

scriver

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Re: Calm and Cool Progressive Discussion Thread
« Reply #6974 on: August 03, 2013, 12:50:06 pm »

My head is now firmly being hit against my desk. I am sorry, but I disagree so very strongly with so much of that last post, I dont even know how to begin wording a rebuttal.
Please do actually word a response other than " LOLO I'M HEADESKING"

Let me try then. Art, as in the creation of music, sculpture, painting, poetry and literature, has been humanities means of comminicating its desires, fears, thoughts feelings and emotions through the ages - from cave paintings up to bisected sharks in formaldehyde. Art tells a story of the place it was made and who by. As a scientist I dont claim to understand art or the process by which it is made, but I understand its purpose and benefits. Art allows for the establishment of cultural identites and practices, and the exchange of these ideas through the medium by which works are created. Art spills over into science, enigeering and the media. Things like the traits you claim need no fostering in this manner are not inherent properties of humanity - they are fostered and tought by the community an individual finds themselves in, fostered by both the people the interact with and the substance of thier society - its works of art, its pop music, its buildings, its myths and legends. Its morals. Should an individual find that they fit with what they are exposed to, then fab. If they dont, then by giving them a footing in these schools of thought allows them to identify why they do not, and to go off and find a sector where they do or to go create thier own identity. Ethics are not set in stone rules. They are guidelines as to decide how to think, and are as artificial a construct as a bridge. People will not know how to choose to act right if they can not identify what is right and wrong. Every young person deserves to be exposed to a range of science, art, music, engineering, math, sport in order to appreciate humanity, and to decide what is best for them. This is a rambling collection of ideas that I have not put much time into, and I am typing on the fly as I think, but I think my feelings are clear.

It is a very good summation of why art is a cornerstone in society, though. A shame kingfisher decided to just ignore it.

Oh, and the three things most likely to keep young people out of crime? Sports, music, and art.
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