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Author Topic: Calm and Cool Progressive Discussion Thread  (Read 1212653 times)

Vector

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Re: Calm and Cool Progressive Discussion Thread
« Reply #7005 on: August 03, 2013, 12:02:05 pm »

Also: there's a lot of regions where the group you'll find on the playground is not exactly diverse.  Sure, you may develop empathy for a certain kind of person, but you won't know how to react to a different one unless you've gotten some grounding in, well, human diversity.  And usually people learn about these things through art and literature.

Why does this matter?  Because our study of human issues is only as sound as the breadth of our definition of what constitutes a human.  God knows women are still feeling the aftershocks, decades later, and lots of other groups are, too.
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"The question of the usefulness of poetry arises only in periods of its decline, while in periods of its flowering, no one doubts its total uselessness." - Boris Pasternak

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10ebbor10

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Re: Calm and Cool Progressive Discussion Thread
« Reply #7006 on: August 03, 2013, 12:03:01 pm »

The military has hundreds of years of tradition. Even better, it provides multifaceted benefits. Where the hell is a mechanic going to get work? Simple, the military. Unless you want to subsidise companies into hiring mechanics, it's your best bet. Even better, still have to keep around a military until this " World Peace" thing rocks around. Even better, R&D trickles down all sorts of cool stuff into everyday use.

Well, simple. Replace the military with another national organization that has a proud tradition, invents awesome stuff, and has a bit more overlap with civilian life, as well as not being outdated when world PeaceTM rolls around. [Penny for NASA anyone]

Which leads us to the shocking conclusion that well funded and well delivered education of all and any forms would reduce the need for welfare?
Which we can't fund because we're spending it on welfare. Well.
Or not taxing the rich enough. Or any of a large number of valid reasons.

Point is, it's hard to reeducate yourself when you don't have a home, can't afford food, can't afford treatment, or a number of other reasons. Education alone isn't going to cut it. You need both reintegration and welfare.

Or a massive bloated military budget. The US spends something like $700 billion on its armed forces. Imagine what $5billion could do for schools in the US and what little effect that would have on the US military?
I don't know. I think a lack of funding isn't to blame, but lack of good teaching methods.
Both, probably. Stuff is way to expensive for what it does.

First off, make a tank that doesn't have a FUCKING GAS TURBINE WHICH REQUIRES A REFUEL EVERY 7 HOURS! That'll save some cash.

Sadly, that's a result of giving the military too much money. They know that if they don't spend all their money this year, they'll get less next year. Hence why you get completely useless vanity projects. If you'd actually punish them for failed projects, I'm pretty sure significant cuts can be made while increasing efficiency.

If the money doesn't disappear completely, that is...


Minor sidetrack here, and with the risk of inflaming stuff but the art courses are similar to what religion courses should be...

Ie, don't teach them to believe, but teach them to understand what they're seeing/ reading/ whatever...
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MetalSlimeHunt

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Re: Calm and Cool Progressive Discussion Thread
« Reply #7007 on: August 03, 2013, 12:06:19 pm »

Well, simple. Replace the military with another national organization that has a proud tradition, invents awesome stuff, and has a bit more overlap with civilian life, as well as not being outdated when world PeaceTM rolls around. [Penny for NASA anyone]
Seriously, I can't even imagine what NASA might have finished by now if they had the military's level of funding.
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Quote from: Thomas Paine
To argue with a man who has renounced the use and authority of reason, and whose philosophy consists in holding humanity in contempt, is like administering medicine to the dead, or endeavoring to convert an atheist by scripture.
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kingfisher1112

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Re: Calm and Cool Progressive Discussion Thread
« Reply #7008 on: August 03, 2013, 12:07:35 pm »

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Not art
Art is an expression of ethics, emotions. It's not something that can be taught. However, meddling in early ethical development can lead to problems. I.E, what if a socialist teacher was to show only protest art to a class? Shape their future political views?
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No comment, as I sit in my picturesque house surrounded by a city of brutalist, renaissance and post-modern architecture. A POX ON YOU
But seriously, you're wrong on this one for the lesser reasons.
Dirty peasant. Surrealism is where it's at. Melting Big Ben at twelve bong? Wonderful.
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This one is important. Is it seriously a thing where students in America eat lunch in class and don't socialize?
Are you agreeing or disagreeing with me? Because expression can be done in many ways. I did it with words and stories. Visual art ( The kind taught in schools) did nothing for me.
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Yeah, fuck humanity.
Here I was saying simply how the schoolyard, socialising, all that can do wanders for those two attributes.
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Ideas are easy, expressing them can sometimes take some help. What should teachers be able to do?
That's the thing. I don't know. Maybe a centralised curriculum from some art authority to prevent government meddling.
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True. Neither should it be neglected.
Not neglected, just better regulated, centralised to certain areas for more funding, and other stuff.
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Ben Garrison pls
Goy pls.
Well, simple. Replace the military with another national organization that has a proud tradition, invents awesome stuff, and has a bit more overlap with civilian life, as well as not being outdated when world PeaceTM rolls around. [Penny for NASA anyone]
Seriously, I can't even imagine what NASA might have finished by now if they had the military's level of funding.
Not a lot more. They accomplished incredible things, but they can't just " More tanks! More troops!" They could make lots of incredible things, but just not really incredible things.
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I honestly thought this was going to be about veterinarians.
Ermey: 26/4/13

LordSlowpoke

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Re: Calm and Cool Progressive Discussion Thread
« Reply #7009 on: August 03, 2013, 12:08:50 pm »

Well, simple. Replace the military with another national organization that has a proud tradition, invents awesome stuff, and has a bit more overlap with civilian life, as well as not being outdated when world PeaceTM rolls around. [Penny for NASA anyone]
Seriously, I can't even imagine what NASA might have finished by now if they had the military's level of funding.

a prototype of personal hoverboards based on the alcubierre drive would be constructed around today.

don't ask from where i know this
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Frumple

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Re: Calm and Cool Progressive Discussion Thread
« Reply #7010 on: August 03, 2013, 12:09:46 pm »

Or a massive bloated military budget. The US spends something like $700 billion on its armed forces. Imagine what an extra $5billion could do for secondary age (11-18) schools in the US and what little effect that would have on the US military?
Between 1 and 1.4 trillion in 2012, overall. Federal spending was pegged at 681 billion according to the source (which I found here -- it's an .xls file. You can see the notes on the wikipedia part to see where the discrepancy's coming from.), and education at 91 billion -- but only 39 billion of that going to K-12 education (including vocational training) and 20 to higher education. It'd take less than a 10% (~8.6%) cut to the military spending listed there to have flat out doubled primary et al and higher education spending in 2012. Total spending on what's normally called welfare here (unemployment, food and housing assistance -- only one of which, unemployment, involves "just handing out money for fun") was around 200 billion. You'd have to cut that by better than a forth to double education spending. For what it's worth, we spend more than half as much on veteran benefits as we do on overall welfare (of the sort mentioned: ~120 billion vs ~200 billion).

Plain cash disbursement (especially to folks that aren't unemployed) isn't actually much of th'states' welfare spending, and is more or less a pittance of the overall budget. The big hits are military, medicare, and social security... and at least one of those we could probably stand to loosen up on, just a titch.

As for that five billion. Would be an 8.4% increase in the 2012 education budget for primary et al and higher education, in exchange for a .7% decrease in defense spending. 2.4% decrease in welfare spending, 4% decrease in veteran spending, if you were to draw from one of those, instead. .6% if you were to roll veteran spending into overall military.

Which... should probably help understand why there's this certain subset of folks who want to cut military spending and redirect it into, y'know, other things. As th'states' spending goes, military is one of the less directly necessary or beneficial things money's being spent on, and so much is being spent on it the nation could get significant gains (budgetary, in any case), in other areas. Areas that are considerably more likely to have notable benefit back home, as opposed to pissing off the rest of the world and crippling a fair number of our youth. Being fair, also fending off some of the people we've pissed off, but... yeah.
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Vector

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Re: Calm and Cool Progressive Discussion Thread
« Reply #7011 on: August 03, 2013, 12:10:59 pm »

I agree that in an ideal world where we could count on the objectivity of the teacher, some sort of theological education should be mandatory at this juncture of our history.

Or, at the very least, what I had--a project where we had to go to a church we don't normally worship at, attend a service, interview a pastor/reverend/priest/religious dude, do research, and write a 15-page paper.  For my particular class it was a mandatory piece of 8th grade, along with developing a personal project on which we spent at least 70 hours.


Not a lot more. They accomplished incredible things, but they can't just " More tanks! More troops!" They could make lots of incredible things, but just not really incredible things.

. . .

I think you should examine your biases.
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"The question of the usefulness of poetry arises only in periods of its decline, while in periods of its flowering, no one doubts its total uselessness." - Boris Pasternak

nonbinary/genderfluid/genderqueer renegade mathematician and mafia subforum limpet. please avoid quoting me.

pronouns: prefer neutral ones, others are fine. height: 5'3".

Dutchling

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Re: Calm and Cool Progressive Discussion Thread
« Reply #7012 on: August 03, 2013, 12:12:42 pm »

Not a lot more. They accomplished incredible things, but they can't just " More tanks! More troops!" They could make lots of incredible things, but just not really incredible things.

. . .

I think you should examine your biases.
Found them.
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MonkeyHead

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Re: Calm and Cool Progressive Discussion Thread
« Reply #7013 on: August 03, 2013, 12:12:55 pm »

My head is now firmly being hit against my desk. I am sorry, but I disagree so very strongly with so much of that last post, I dont even know how to begin wording a rebuttal.
Please do actually word a response other than " LOLO I'M HEADESKING"

Let me try then. Art, as in the creation of music, sculpture, painting, poetry and literature, has been humanities means of comminicating its desires, fears, thoughts feelings and emotions through the ages - from cave paintings up to bisected sharks in formaldehyde. Art tells a story of the place it was made and who by. As a scientist I dont claim to understand art or the process by which it is made, but I understand its purpose and benefits. Art allows for the establishment of cultural identites and practices, and the exchange of these ideas through the medium by which works are created. Art spills over into science, enigeering and the media. Things like the traits you claim need no fostering in this manner are not inherent properties of humanity - they are fostered and tought by the community an individual finds themselves in, fostered by both the people the interact with and the substance of thier society - its works of art, its pop music, its buildings, its myths and legends. Its morals. Should an individual find that they fit with what they are exposed to, then fab. If they dont, then by giving them a footing in these schools of thought allows them to identify why they do not, and to go off and find a sector where they do or to go create thier own identity. Ethics are not set in stone rules. They are guidelines as to decide how to think, and are as artificial a construct as a bridge. People will not know how to choose to act right if they can not identify what is right and wrong. Every young person deserves to be exposed to a range of science, art, music, engineering, math, sport in order to appreciate humanity, and to decide what is best for them. This is a rambling collection of ideas that I have not put much time into, and I am typing on the fly as I think, but I think my feelings are clear.
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10ebbor10

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Re: Calm and Cool Progressive Discussion Thread
« Reply #7014 on: August 03, 2013, 12:13:49 pm »

Well, if I recall correctly, the old sixties roadmap would have Humans on the moon, in a pretty large colonies, and outposts on Mars. With airbreathing turbines to allow for cheaper rocketry, and planetoid mining to cut costs.

I can't find it though.
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kingfisher1112

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Re: Calm and Cool Progressive Discussion Thread
« Reply #7015 on: August 03, 2013, 12:14:27 pm »

Not a lot more. They accomplished incredible things, but they can't just " More tanks! More troops!" They could make lots of incredible things, but just not really incredible things.

. . .

I think you should examine your biases.
Found them.
I think I'm just fine with my biases thank you.

OH GOD PLEASE LET ME POST
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I honestly thought this was going to be about veterinarians.
Ermey: 26/4/13

MetalSlimeHunt

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Re: Calm and Cool Progressive Discussion Thread
« Reply #7016 on: August 03, 2013, 12:17:04 pm »

Well, simple. Replace the military with another national organization that has a proud tradition, invents awesome stuff, and has a bit more overlap with civilian life, as well as not being outdated when world PeaceTM rolls around. [Penny for NASA anyone]
Seriously, I can't even imagine what NASA might have finished by now if they had the military's level of funding.
Not a lot more. They accomplished incredible things, but they can't just " More tanks! More troops!" They could make lots of incredible things, but just not really incredible things.
What? What in the hell does that even mean?

And no, they could do a lot more incredible things. Like solidifying the continued existence of humanity, for example. You know, small feats like that.

Also, all of this suggests that they probably do good things for technological innovation.
Well, if I recall correctly, the old sixties roadmap would have Humans on the moon, in a pretty large colonies, and outposts on Mars. With airbreathing turbines to allow for cheaper rocketry, and planetoid mining to cut costs.

I can't find it though.
I remember that and cannot seem to find it as well.
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Quote from: Thomas Paine
To argue with a man who has renounced the use and authority of reason, and whose philosophy consists in holding humanity in contempt, is like administering medicine to the dead, or endeavoring to convert an atheist by scripture.
Quote
No Gods, No Masters.

kingfisher1112

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Re: Calm and Cool Progressive Discussion Thread
« Reply #7017 on: August 03, 2013, 12:20:44 pm »

Well, simple. Replace the military with another national organization that has a proud tradition, invents awesome stuff, and has a bit more overlap with civilian life, as well as not being outdated when world PeaceTM rolls around. [Penny for NASA anyone]
Seriously, I can't even imagine what NASA might have finished by now if they had the military's level of funding.
Not a lot more. They accomplished incredible things, but they can't just " More tanks! More troops!" They could make lots of incredible things, but just not really incredible things.
What? What in the hell does that even mean?

And no, they could do a lot more incredible things. Like solidifying the continued existence of humanity, for example. You know, small feats like that.

Also, all of this suggests that they probably do good things for technological innovation.
Well, if I recall correctly, the old sixties roadmap would have Humans on the moon, in a pretty large colonies, and outposts on Mars. With airbreathing turbines to allow for cheaper rocketry, and planetoid mining to cut costs.

I can't find it though.
I remember that and cannot seem to find it as well.
While that's all good, I think military R&D can claim quite the list of achievements as well. Anti-sleep pills, more practical lasers, better and better understanding of radar, waves in general, psychological advances, all sorts of medical advancements, and some other things I can't think of right now.
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I honestly thought this was going to be about veterinarians.
Ermey: 26/4/13

MonkeyHead

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Re: Calm and Cool Progressive Discussion Thread
« Reply #7018 on: August 03, 2013, 12:22:29 pm »

Yes, but in general these are used to kill people with greater efficiency, not to better humanity.
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MetalSlimeHunt

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Re: Calm and Cool Progressive Discussion Thread
« Reply #7019 on: August 03, 2013, 12:23:38 pm »

Indeed they do, and it is for that reason that R&D is the one aspect of the military I do not seek massive cuts in.

Regardless, military tech advancement is still inferior to space tech advancement in that the former is ultimately all for the cause of, you know, war.
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Quote from: Thomas Paine
To argue with a man who has renounced the use and authority of reason, and whose philosophy consists in holding humanity in contempt, is like administering medicine to the dead, or endeavoring to convert an atheist by scripture.
Quote
No Gods, No Masters.
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