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Author Topic: Calm and Cool Progressive Discussion Thread  (Read 1212911 times)

martinuzz

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Re: Calm and Cool Progressive Discussion Thread
« Reply #11355 on: January 10, 2016, 06:24:01 pm »

Yeah, sadly the trend is blowing over to the US indeed. Sorry, I had temporary blocked Trump from memory for comfort reasons.
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TheBiggerFish

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Re: Calm and Cool Progressive Discussion Thread
« Reply #11356 on: January 10, 2016, 06:26:44 pm »

I wish I could just block him from running for President...
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Wolfhunter107

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Re: Calm and Cool Progressive Discussion Thread
« Reply #11357 on: January 10, 2016, 06:31:12 pm »

It's not just Trump. There are plenty of politicians that have expressed the same sort of sentiment, and have been doing so for quite a while now. It hasn't gotten to the same level as Europe yet, but it's definitely there.
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Loud Whispers

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Re: Calm and Cool Progressive Discussion Thread
« Reply #11358 on: January 10, 2016, 06:33:34 pm »

The issue is that no religions are the same or anywhere close to equal. Just because you have skimmed the Bible and Koran and notice that are both are documents of barbarism and hate does not mean that all the religions read this way. There is a big reason why East Eurasia has a plethora of religions living side by side for thousands of years and that West Eurasia did not (until Secularism defeated Christendom.)
The struggles between Hinduism, Islam, Buddhism, Christianity and Eastern Spiritualism? The most bloody civil war in all of human history was a religious insurrection in China. Eastern syncretism however is something quite unique.

Y'know, I think to me it all boils down to the following: If Europe can only be defended by drowning people in the Mediterranean or fencing them in inside war zones, then Europe simply is no longer worth defending. That having been said, I'm confident that we can indeed find ways to defend Europe while still granting refuge to all those who need it. We need to get it into our collective head first that taking in asylum seekers is at the very heart of what we wish to defend, though.
Those who first called immigrants 'refugees' have already made Europe worth its suicide; to call upon people to make the dangerous journey for benefits they can't be given for countries whose people do not want them nor will be defend from them when they are attacked. To be so two-faced as to cover the backs of murderers and rapists and no longer have that be hyperbole, to create the largest humanitarian crisis possible and rebuke all attempts at fixing it until it's too late - I will always be forever disheartened with how Germany and Sweden decried all other European nations for not accepting more immigrants, for protecting their border controls, and then flooding their countries with more immigrants than they could handle - reinstating their own border controls whilst still yet attacking others for doing the same. The refugees in actual warzones are being helped by the nations of the USA and UK, Turkey and Lebanon - all the whilst countries trying to build the united states of Europe invited people across the world to die for a dead ideal; rule by unelected bureaucrats for nations whose strength was forced diversity. The grand multicultural experiment that apparently never ends no matter how bloody it gets. Seems like walking a waking dream, albeit a demented one. I was most amused by how many immigrants arrived to Germany's Europe, after one of our own forumites was thrown aback as that many immigrants would have depopulated Syria had they been Syrian.
Sumte is the future, a fun one.
Quote
Sumte’s inhabitants were given little choice. The village offered empty refugee accommodation. Two years ago a debt-collecting company, which worked from a 21,000sq ft low-rise office complex on the edge of the village, went bust. The pressure on Lower Saxony’s authorities to find accommodation for a refugee influx into Germany estimated at 5,000 a day was massive. Mr Fabel says the villagers were told they had two options: “Either to say yes or yes” to the project.
A 102 Germans taking on 229 Syrians and 521 other apparent asylum seekers, apparent because they have no exit date and will likely be as impermanent as guest workers still in Germany after four generations.

People have very short memories, but these conversations repeat again and again. 2010, Merkel says Multiculturalism has utterly failed. She's facing intense pressure from within her own party and from her own people to halt her social experiment. One third of Germans think Germany is overrun with foreigners, 55% believe Arabs are unpleasant people; so tolerant, very progressive. She no longer has support for mass immigration. 2013, Merkel stresses that Germany must accept more refugees whilst her parliamentary bloc moves to classify the Balkans as safe, allowing for easier rejection of asylum seekers from Serbia, Macedonia, Albania e.t.c.. At that point Germany was taking in 200,000 refugees a year. They were warned that opening the door wider and leaving more incentives for people to make the journey to Germany would do the obvious; make more people make the journey to Germany.
By 2014:
Earlier in 2014 amongst first time asylum seekers the proportion of Syrians was around 10-15%, not accounting for second time asylum seekers, fake Syrians, those coming by sea nor immigrants who authorities fail to log. Eurostat has 700,000 asylum seekers in total logged across the EU despite countries like Germany alone taking in 750,000 illegal immigrants yearly, set to rise to 800,000 - conservative estimates. Measuring by asylum applications only takes into account those who bother to apply for asylum and takes their word for it. The German panic over how big they fucked up is intensifying after they failed to stop the influx (it has increased to record highs) of people, after they failed to shovel the immigrants they so desperately lusted for onto other EU countries because they got cold feet(...) the didactic duo are running out of emergency accommodation on their own turf.
And in response to receiving 10k immigrants in 7 days the Swedish PM is begging immigrants to stay in Germany.
It seems fitting to use the german word schadenfreude here, how pleasing it is to see when people get knocked off their moral high horses with a sharp kick to the bum. It is easy to see who has helped and who has miserably failed, failed their own people, failed Syrians and Iraqis, Somalis and Libyans and throw in a couple crying Germans and Swedes. It disappoints me that after Rotherham the German and Swedish police have not learned from this and also try to cover up enriching crime
That number had risen to 800,000 a year by conservative estimates, for Germany alone - excluding all other EU countries.
And unsurprisingly we are still talking about German and Swedish police covering up enriching crime, though it seems now they have shouldered all the blame leaving others just as responsible curiously clean.
By 2015 Merkel inquires whether Germany is losing that which makes Germany so strong," namely "the societal center." She is constantly asking herself, Merkel related, "if we are losing the center. By then the rate of immigration had its estimate increased from 800,000 to 1,500,000, measured only by those who claimed asylum - excluding those who did not register. That number also does not include those logged as immigrants, legal or illegal. The number for Europe as a whole is set to increase to 3,000,000 in 2016, though I wonder how many times that number will be revised and how many will go to Germany. This will cost Germany by current estimates 17 billion euros. Contrast with the UK, who has much less money to spend than Germany, who at a time where they have cut social spending for their own subjects have spent nothing short of a billion sterling actually helping those fleeing war. And that billion sterling have helped more, helped more in need - even helped those whose situations are so bad they cannot even flee war. Whilst countries like France, USA and UK kill smugglers, shut down smuggling rings in Europe, thwart terrorist smuggling actions and otherwise pay the price for Germans tearing away at national sovereignty - even fighting alongside and training Kurds and rebels to retake their lands everywhere from Nigeria to Ethiopia and Iraq, the only Germans who've done so have been volunteers, no state actors. Meanwhile after "Syrians" with fake syrian passports disappeared in Germany the Germans wasted no time in using this crisis to take control of other countries' borders by expanding Frontex's powers without the consent of the actual countries involved. So remember, having border control is racist unless you give it to the Germans.

The country most responsible for this carnality taking credit for the help given by other nations for a project it fucked up is not getting let off for its cold politik dressed up as friendly progressivism. No military action for the loudest voice, a disgraceful foreign aid budget for the loudest voice, and an uncaring disregard for the people or nations of Europe; just another excuse to create Germany's Europe. The loudest voice has nothing worth saying anymore, and Europe already burns. Refugee riots, Pegida Riots, your own rape gangs and of course antifa riots too. Germany did this for more workers. For money. Now you've got no money, no moral highground and no control. I will mourn this decay, and move on. If you believe the Poles and Austrians this was a deliberate affair by German globalists to dig up Europe's roots and create a multicultural Europe with no individual nations or identities. I think this is not the case, after all the Germans in Bavaria, the Swedes up north and so on have reinstated border controls now; if they really were concerned with globalism to such an extent they would've halted all efforts to stop this immigration. Certainly there are factions who wish to do so, just as the UK's left-wing progressive party pushed for the EU to loosen national borders the same time it wanted to "make multiculturalism." Rather I suspect this was just a simple matter of Germany wanting workers and Merkel needing a way to make this palatable for an increasingly xenophobic and small-family populace of Germans. That's why the immigrants are working-age men, why they are destined for Germany, and why when the numbers went from 200,000 a year to 1,500,000 Merkel did an about turn and panicked. You don't push political machines you can't stop, and it will be interesting to see whether those millions will use their right to bring their families to Germany for their "temporary" asylum.

All in all it will most likely continue on as normal, or what is normal nowadays. Police covering up for criminals, politicians lying as usual, the EU expanding its power whilst populists distance themselves and far right groups take flight everywhere from street to parliament, with jihadists continuing their normal course of beheading journalists and soldiers on European streets. For those countries which took control they will emerge unscathed, for those that waited until things were out of control... Well, I will repeat the sentiment echoed in this thread in favour of more immigration: It's already happened, might as well take in more. Your options are yes and yes.

Helgoland

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Re: Calm and Cool Progressive Discussion Thread
« Reply #11359 on: January 10, 2016, 06:37:28 pm »

Man, I think there's a Houellebecq book that describes pretty much what you're envisioning.
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Frumple

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Re: Calm and Cool Progressive Discussion Thread
« Reply #11360 on: January 10, 2016, 06:38:59 pm »

Yeah, sadly the trend is blowing over to the US indeed. Sorry, I had temporary blocked Trump from memory for comfort reasons.
Eh, to be fair to trump, the sentiment was already there, it just tended to simmer mostly below the surface, working through talk radio and whatnot. Trend was here before the cross atlantic stuff started kicking up, and had already been here for quite a while. Mostly just more diffuse, and perhaps less pressure on it.

There is probably some feedback going on both ways, though.

It hasn't gotten to the same level as Europe yet, but it's definitely there.
Probably important to note proportionality, here, ha. US may have a relatively smaller issue with that sort of thing, but "relatively smaller" also means "with a supporting population larger than several european countries" when you're talking about the US. They're just not quite as bunched up.
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k33n

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Re: Calm and Cool Progressive Discussion Thread
« Reply #11361 on: January 10, 2016, 07:20:30 pm »

... mart, in case you haven't noticed, we've actually got a fairly substantial amount of support over here for fairly rabid racist/populist rhetoric. Probably not as organized or concentrated -- and I'd blame that, at least, on geography more than polarization -- but we definitely get a substantial amount of people in our political positions that run on more or less the same sort of platform. It's not really a side issue, unfortunately.

Not racism, actually, because the issue religion, not race.
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Rolepgeek

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Re: Calm and Cool Progressive Discussion Thread
« Reply #11362 on: January 10, 2016, 07:23:52 pm »

Since when did protesting alongside a group mean that you're supporting them? Within the context of a particular issue, anyone who agrees with you is your ally. The alternative is that no groups would form at all, because there's no way you could get enough people who agree on everything.
If only that were true.

I'm not trying to be snarky here. Just, honestly, that's not how it works. My ally is people who are on my side on an issue, but just because I like sci fi doesn't mean I like Orson Scott Card. The group's beliefs aren't the variables in this instance, the invidual's are. Positions on issues cluster for many reasons, but a large part of it is signalling, social interactions, tribal relations, and the subconscious part of your mind that calculates all this and adjusts the conscious mind accordingly. You want to fit in, so to enable groups to form, your mind sweeps aside some of the issues you disagree with them on. If you grow up in it, usually it shapes the way you view those issues. The conscious mind evolved to lie. To yourself so you can lie better to others, primarily (lies are more believable when the person telling them thinks they're true). It's why we like stories so much. We function off narrative. Fiction is a lie that we choose to believe for a short period of time. Willing suspension of disbelief. Groupthink is a thing. "With us or against us" is a thought process used consciously by your opponents to refer to what you do, and subconsciously by the tribe to pick who's part of it.

((sidequestion: who gives a shit whether the bloodiest war was a intrastate or interstate? why does that make any difference?))
((on similar but still unrelated topic: actually there's been a couple of studies about the way farming rice versus wheat shapes relationships; you need a village to grow rice, you need a family to grow wheat. The one is more communal and social, and the other is more analytical and individual))

Loud Whisper, if Europe really does go to shit from a few million immigrants coming in (compared to what, 500 million population Europe total?) and people being prejudiced (multiculturalism has failed because people are still intolerant after a massive influx of refugees coming from a place in turmoil? (Turmoil and stress helping cause violence and criminal behavior?)), I will acknowledge your rhetoric as being correct. My guess is more along the lines of yeah, crisis, and yeah, it sucks, but the world rarely ends. It ends forever even more rarely.

Though, if you're recommending dealing with the crisis at it's source (that is, kicking ISIS's door in with tanks and stealth bombers), I would agree whole-heartedly.

Seriously, fuck all this refugee shit, make the place into less of a hellhole so they don't need to run away. The less people in actual need, the harder it will be for people in false need to get through, because we can afford to be more rigorous. Goddamn, we spend shittons on military, use it.

And k33n, that's great to say on the surface, but until you can back it up, there's a pretty decent argument for 'it's both, actually, but one is considered more legitimate than the other'.
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Loud Whispers

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Re: Calm and Cool Progressive Discussion Thread
« Reply #11363 on: January 10, 2016, 07:26:34 pm »

Man, I think there's a Houellebecq book that describes pretty much what you're envisioning.
I only know him as an edgy French novelist who wrote about Lovecraft after wikipediaing' him.
Quote
Literary critics have labeled Michel Houellebecq's novels "vulgar", "pamphlet literature" and "pornography"; he has been accused of obscenity, racism, misogyny and Islamophobia.
Sounds like a class act. I'm assuming you're just dismissing everything I said as obscenity, racism, misogyny and Islamophobia? So be it, if that is your rebuttal I have nothing to say to bad labels except blathering shitposts; I have long not cared for such labels. I let arguments stand on their own feet, not those of those saying them. It was quite amusing searching my old posts on when I first picked up on the crisis, you can find posts from 2013 by me where I am a good progressive in favour of multiculturalism, haha. It was before the revelation that my country's progressive parties, the ones I supported, had in turn supported some heinous things. I need not repeat myself. Reading my posts you would be surprised to find I am not anti-immigration, but no one cares for what my opinions are; there is no merit in knowing.
I do not much care for what your elites do to your country, neither of us can do anything to stop it. This is all talk and watch.

Oh and I had promised to look into this Cologne crap, I had wondered if this was the manufacturing of Stormfront or such as people in this thread raised concerns with the wording of the news articles and such, but my search was brief and Merkel's confirmed it and proposed tougher laws for deporting immigrants. How quickly the moral highground did fall like pillars of salt. When immigrants do rape your women, do you back down on feminism or immigration? Evidently you serve neither and let it all combust on its own.
Sweden's foreign minister has gone so far as to say:
"I think most people feel that we cannot maintain a system where perhaps 190,000 people will arrive every year. In the long run, our system will collapse. And that welcome is not going to receive popular support. I have to admit that there have been moments recently of very great disappointment. I have heard statements from [EU] member states that have been completely astonishing and very discouraging."
And I must say I was more optimistic than the Swedes, I thought their replacement would not necessitate collapse. I suppose this is a time for surprises. Kind of like when that Swedish girl was raped by refugees, fled only to be raped again around the corner and court documents revealed one said rather clearly "I'm gonna fuck you little Swedish girl". One of them avoided deportation by claiming to be Syrian. And then "antiracist" Swedes rallied to defend them. Ah. Well.
At least in Germany the sexual assaults were only in Cologne, Hamburg and Stuttgart...
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What is particularly disturbing is that the attacks appear to have been organised. Around 1,000 young men arrived in large groups, seemingly with the specific intention of carrying out attacks on women.
Germany has actually made Daily Mail headlines real. I suppose there's nothing more symbolic than a German woman being raped in front of Cologne Cathedral beneath the fireworks and overstretched police. Is this what Merkel meant when she said Germany was losing her "social centre?"
The most depressing thing is that for Bay12 I only ever use conservative estimates from left-wing progressive sources for the express reason that the estimates given by right-wing sources could never be believed. Who would've ever considered the Guardian would one day be reporting 1,500,000 a year for Germany? Oh well, it's all thoroughly depressing. I am becoming quite desensitized to the sheer scale of what has been happening from London to Frankfurt and Stockholm. I suppose that's depressing too, this has all just turned into numbers of people who do not matter because they rest too low on the progressive stack.

On a more, well not uplifting note, but certainly more neutral note - what do you (plural) lot think Germany can do in response to this? Curfews on national holidays? Hire more police somehow? What shall be done with women arming themselves? What shall be done with the armed neighbourhood watches? The rise of neo-nazi or far-right groups? The rise of conflicting Ethnic Immigrant and Islamic groups? The great ticking timebomb of police officers joining pegida?
There must be ~something~ Germany must be able to do irregardless of their immigration.

Helgoland

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Re: Calm and Cool Progressive Discussion Thread
« Reply #11364 on: January 10, 2016, 07:29:15 pm »

Sounds like a class act. I'm assuming you're just dismissing everything I said as obscenity, racism, misogyny and Islamophobia? So be it, if that is your rebuttal I have nothing to say to bad labels except blathering shitposts; I have long not cared for such labels.
Naah, I just wanted to make that remark. I've never read anything by the guy, but as a rule artists who people feel the need to call obscene, racist, misogynist, and Islamophobic are sufficiently good to have made some enemies. Just look at de Sade, or the guy who painted L'Origine du monde.
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k33n

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Re: Calm and Cool Progressive Discussion Thread
« Reply #11365 on: January 10, 2016, 07:34:02 pm »


This is why I believe progressiveness is no longer liberalism and liberalism is no longer progressive.
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Morrigi

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Re: Calm and Cool Progressive Discussion Thread
« Reply #11366 on: January 10, 2016, 07:45:38 pm »

Meanwhile, the number of reported criminal complaints over the Cologne attacks has topped 500, 40% of which were sexual in nature. http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-35277249
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k33n

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Re: Calm and Cool Progressive Discussion Thread
« Reply #11367 on: January 10, 2016, 08:02:31 pm »

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Loud Whispers

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Re: Calm and Cool Progressive Discussion Thread
« Reply #11368 on: January 10, 2016, 08:16:43 pm »

((sidequestion: who gives a shit whether the bloodiest war was a intrastate or interstate? why does that make any difference?))
Because the bloodiest interstate war killed 90 million people spread out across many countries and peoples, the bloodiest civil war killed 90 million people in one concentrated area of destruction, affecting one nation's peoples.

((on similar but still unrelated topic: actually there's been a couple of studies about the way farming rice versus wheat shapes relationships; you need a village to grow rice, you need a family to grow wheat. The one is more communal and social, and the other is more analytical and individual))
https://news.virginia.edu/content/rice-theory-explains-north-south-china-cultural-differences-study-shows
Perhaps. I'm not yet sold. Russia did not grow rice. Also South America has the people most averse to authoritarianism, yet grow the same kinda shit as North America, Tropical Africa and Indonesia. Broad agricultural generalizations aside... I suppose they may be onto something. It is interesting as well with the honour herding theory, where cultures like Arab or Texan culture are very honour concerned and will readily resort to violence to defend it. The agricultural basis is simple; when you herd animals, if someone takes your animals overnight your entire livelihood disappears and you are dead. So to avoid being taken advantage of by someone you defend yourself furiously like the honey badger at any slight to show no weakness and never be taken advantage of.

Loud Whisper, if Europe really does go to shit from a few million immigrants coming in (compared to what, 500 million population Europe total?) and people being prejudiced (multiculturalism has failed because people are still intolerant after a massive influx of refugees coming from a place in turmoil? (Turmoil and stress helping cause violence and criminal behavior?)), I will acknowledge your rhetoric as being correct.
Rolepgeek I have had you bring up these points before.
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And it's quite saddening that every single last shitpost is coming true. You must be more tolerant, you were raped because you were prejudiced and just not tolerant enough.

Though, if you're recommending dealing with the crisis at it's source (that is, kicking ISIS's door in with tanks and stealth bombers), I would agree whole-heartedly.
An insufficient response, but we are thinking alike there.

Seriously, fuck all this refugee shit, make the place into less of a hellhole so they don't need to run away. The less people in actual need, the harder it will be for people in false need to get through, because we can afford to be more rigorous. Goddamn, we spend shittons on military, use it.
You are referring to the USA? The USA is not in the same boat as Europe. The USA can do anything it wants short of nuking Mecca and it really wouldn't affect Americans all that much.
« Last Edit: January 10, 2016, 08:21:40 pm by Loud Whispers »
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Helgoland

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Re: Calm and Cool Progressive Discussion Thread
« Reply #11369 on: January 10, 2016, 08:25:18 pm »

If there was one thing that statement was not it was vague. Admittedly its intended connotation was more than a bit unclear, but I sort of figured that a guy like you would take being compared to Houellebecq as a compliment :P
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Arguably he's already a progressive, just one in the style of an enlightened Kaiser.
I'm going to do the smart thing here and disengage. This isn't a hill I paticularly care to die on.
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