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Author Topic: Adamantine and Slade Science together with physics quirks  (Read 141201 times)

Shinziril

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Re: Could an adamantine battle axe really kill?
« Reply #15 on: March 13, 2012, 10:13:23 am »

The density of styrofoam (as ripped straight from Wikipedia) is 75 kg/m^3.

The density of adamantine (as taken from the raws) is 200 kg/m^3.  It's a bit less dense than cork, which is still an insanely low value given its strength.

Also note that if adamantine ever melted (which it won't, given its melting point), its liquid density is 2600 kg/m^3, a 13x increase over its solid state.  This, combined with its nature as "strands" when initially extracted, has convinced me that an adamantine "wafer" or item is actually a sort of cage-structure made of the strands loosely pressed together into a mat, with gaps between strands taking up 90% or more of the volume of the structure (although said gaps need not be large, if the strands are also small).  Handle the strands with care; given small size and their insane strength, a single strand could act like the old sci-fi trope of monomolecular cheesewire. 

Zsword's calculation of adamantine's molar mass is incorrect, as he calculated it based on the relative densities of iron and adamantine, and the densities do not directly relate to the molar mass (you also need to know the number of atoms per unit volume to do that).  Incidentally, a value for molar mass of adamantine is given in the raws as 55854, which is precisely the same as the molar mass for iron (presumably because iron is the "default" metal, and Toady hadn't bothered actually assigning a unique molar mass to a magical metal). 
« Last Edit: March 13, 2012, 10:18:27 am by Shinziril »
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Mungrul

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Re: Could an adamantine battle axe really kill?
« Reply #16 on: March 13, 2012, 10:14:13 am »

So surely the best way to forge an adamantine axe would be to provide it some heft?
Use a folded blade design and fold it around a lead weight maybe?
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forsaken1111

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Re: Could an adamantine battle axe really kill?
« Reply #17 on: March 13, 2012, 10:15:17 am »

If weight is an issue, just clamp a lead weight between the blades.
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Awessum Possum

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Re: Could an adamantine battle axe really kill?
« Reply #18 on: March 13, 2012, 10:18:57 am »

Well do remember that paper can cleave a man in two.

Hmm... Adamantine is lighter than air? This raises... issues. I mean weapons would be kept down by their hilts/handles, but armor and wafers, not so much.
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Shinziril

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Re: Could an adamantine battle axe really kill?
« Reply #19 on: March 13, 2012, 10:28:03 am »

It's not lighter than air.  The density of air at sea level is about 1.2 kg/^3.  The density of adamantine is 200 kg/m^3.  Zsword made a (wrong) calculation that the molar mass of adamantine was less than that of helium.
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Girlinhat

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Re: Could an adamantine battle axe really kill?
« Reply #20 on: March 13, 2012, 10:28:50 am »

Spoiler (click to show/hide)
1: You swing your blade.  At this point you are imparting kinetic energy into your strike.  When using a heavy blade, you build up momentum during the swing, adding force by continued effort and essentially storing energy into the blade itself.  With a wiffle bat, you end up with almost exactly as much energy as your arm produces.  The weight of the wiffle can't really sustain any energy in itself.

2: The strike connects, and the energy is imparted.  At this point your sharpness matters, as that determines how deep your blade will bite through the armor.  Most kinetic energy will be delivered here.

3: The strike must carry through to do any damage to the person in the armor.  To do so, you don't need a sharp blade, you need more energy.  The blade edge has already passed through, and while it's still cutting the edges of the armor, the majority of it has pushed through the armor and is rubbing against the person inside.  Due to adamantine's sharpness, we can temporarily ignore the flesh.  The issue now, is that your axe has become a wedge.  A wedge relies on pure force to literally shove something open.  Adamantine has no weight to speak of, it's terrible at storing force, and when it gets to the "wedging" part, it would be rather poor.

It can be assumed that an adamantine battle axe looks more like a large record - perfectly flat along the blade with just a slim edge.  It wouldn't be made to open armor, it would be made to slice through it, more akin to a rotary saw.  A piece of goblin equipment would probably resemble a CD stand with many thin grooves in it after a a battle.

And yes, you could solve all this by using a lead core, but currently DF utilizes one material per item, so we're assuming pure candy.

TheLinguist

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Re: Could an adamantine battle axe really kill?
« Reply #21 on: March 13, 2012, 10:29:36 am »

except I'm decently sure Styrofoam is heavier than air... Adamant is lighter than Helium, which everyone, I'm, is aware of the fact that is lighter than air... meaning...

You do know that the mass of a macroscopic object isn't necessarily proportional to the atomic weight of its constituent elements, right?
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Blizzlord

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Re: Could an adamantine battle axe really kill?
« Reply #22 on: March 13, 2012, 10:42:57 am »

It can be assumed that an adamantine battle axe looks more like a large record - perfectly flat along the blade with just a slim edge.  It wouldn't be made to open armor, it would be made to slice through it, more akin to a rotary saw.  A piece of goblin equipment would probably resemble a CD stand with many thin grooves in it after a a battle.
That is the solution to all the adamantine blade problems. It is not just a monoatomic edge, but the blade itself shares that unbelivable thickness. But then comes another (insignificant) problem. Why does the axe with 160g if the edge is almost weightless?
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Girlinhat

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Re: Could an adamantine battle axe really kill?
« Reply #23 on: March 13, 2012, 10:48:39 am »

Menacing spikes aren't weightless.

werechicken

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Re: Could an adamantine battle axe really kill?
« Reply #24 on: March 13, 2012, 10:49:32 am »

I love the community for this game because of stuff like this; debating cutting power of an axe made from a fictional material.

I've always thought of adamantine like asbestos, seeing as how they share many similar properties (asides from the ability to hold a razor edge)

If it had a completely frictionless edge then yes it could slice am armoured person in two, of not then it wouldn't have the weight needed.
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Blizzlord

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Re: Could an adamantine battle axe really kill?
« Reply #25 on: March 13, 2012, 10:54:29 am »

Menacing spikes aren't weightless.
Yes, but I guess the trap mechanisms can compensate by applying high pressure to impale the noblesgoblins.
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Girlinhat

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Re: Could an adamantine battle axe really kill?
« Reply #26 on: March 13, 2012, 11:08:27 am »

Spoiler (click to show/hide)
I may only presume that an adamantine battle axe is mostly a massive metal block with a large disk tacked on the side.  Dwarves must figure "Well, we got dis here extra material.  May well do summit with it!"

jerank

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Re: Could an adamantine battle axe really kill?
« Reply #27 on: March 13, 2012, 11:12:52 am »

I find it amusing that the debate on this thread is essentially the same as one I once saw about Wolverine's adamantium claws being able to effortlessly shear through steel. Granted, adamantine is notably different for being much lighter and sharper then X-verse adamantium, but the basic principle remains roughly the same.

Essentially, adamantine weapons would cut soft material (skin, flesh, etc) like a high-powered cutting laser. Anything with a rigid atomic structure or a high density would require a proportional ammount of kinetic force to propell the blade through, since it is so impossibly light it can't hold any by itself. This is assuming the wedge principle is in effect. I'm not sure what the result would be if the entire weapon was the same thickness as the edge, or near to that.

I sometimes wonder what a dwarf in full adamantine plate looks like. Does he hop around in an utterly impervious suit of wafer-thin armor like a neon-blue easter bunny or is he encased in a big, threatening powered-armor like contraption designed to strike fear and terror into the hearts of his enemies when he still moves with the grace and speed of a drunken naked person?
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Girlinhat

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Re: Could an adamantine battle axe really kill?
« Reply #28 on: March 13, 2012, 11:17:33 am »

I would imagine that armor made from any material looks about the same once it's covered in blood.

Awessum Possum

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Re: Could an adamantine battle axe really kill?
« Reply #29 on: March 13, 2012, 11:19:56 am »

It's not lighter than air.  The density of air at sea level is about 1.2 kg/^3.  The density of adamantine is 200 kg/m^3.  Zsword made a (wrong) calculation that the molar mass of adamantine was less than that of helium.

So if his calculation was wrong, can we still calculate the weight of Adamantine with the information we have?
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@I used to be an axelord like you, until I took a (+bronze bolt+) to the upper leg, chipping the bone through the *copper leggings*!@
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