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Author Topic: Adamantine and Slade Science together with physics quirks  (Read 201880 times)

wierd

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Re: Adamantine Science and physics quirks
« Reply #195 on: March 15, 2012, 04:05:10 pm »

I didn't mean that slade and adamantine are interacting with each other, I meant that their combined quantum states in their nuclei have a special property in regard to the properties of the higgs boson. (The force carrier particle that mitigates higgs field interaction, giving matter mass.)

If you look at the standard model, many baryons with similar quark construction to protons and neutrons weigh many times more. The fundemental difference is the color force and partial integer spins of the quarks inside them. Somehow this effects how the higgs field reacts with the resulting baryon.

This means that either spin or color has a fundemental role in the origins of gravitation.

If we presume spin is the culprit (spin creates charge and a number of other things), then by having the whole nucleus of the adamantine/slade atom form a total quantum state that is an even multiple of the spin of the higgs boson, interesting things happen.

Granted, this requires the whole nucleus to act as a gestalt whole, something only experimentally observed with a bose-einstien condensate. (Basically, you chill an atom so cold that the nucleus condenses into a super quasi-particle with a unified quantum state.)

We are dealing with a universe where overunity happens, thermodynamics is almost completely broken, and all kinds of stuff though, so room temp condensates held together with "wtf! Kittens!" Seems pretty normal.
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CaveLobsterShell

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Re: Adamantine Science and physics quirks
« Reply #196 on: March 15, 2012, 04:21:05 pm »

Ladies and gentlemen, we are approaching the question to the answer which is 42! :o
I think the Ultimate Question of Life, the Universe and Everything was found in one of the books. The question was "What do you get when you multiply six by nine?" or somesuch. (Yes, I know the answer is 54)

For the record, "6 * 9 = 42" is true in base 13. I know Douglas Adams has denied that's where 42 originated, but I think he accidentally extracted the Answer from his brainwave patterns :-p
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Amallar

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Re: Could an adamantine battle axe really kill?
« Reply #197 on: March 15, 2012, 04:39:25 pm »

Nonbaryonic matter is matter that isn't made of baryons. (Protons, neutrons, et al.)

Things like electrons, neutrinos, muons, that kind of thing.

Nonatomic baryonic matter is stuff like bose-einstein condensates, neutron star core material, etc.

I haven't read much on baryonic/non-baryonic; I thought that the materials could act simply as polar components to larger quantum structures, and was using the proton/electron comparison as an example.

Nevermind, though, if the nature of nonbaryonic matter dictates this as impossible.
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Gizogin

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Re: Adamantine Science and physics quirks
« Reply #198 on: March 15, 2012, 05:10:15 pm »

Ladies and gentlemen, we are approaching the question to the answer which is 42! :o
I think the Ultimate Question of Life, the Universe and Everything was found in one of the books. The question was "What do you get when you multiply six by nine?" or somesuch. (Yes, I know the answer is 54)

For the record, "6 * 9 = 42" is true in base 13. I know Douglas Adams has denied that's where 42 originated, but I think he accidentally extracted the Answer from his brainwave patterns :-p

If I remember correctly, he said:
"I don't write jokes in base thirteen.  No one makes jokes in base thirteen."
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Girlinhat

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Re: Could an adamantine battle axe really kill?
« Reply #199 on: March 15, 2012, 05:31:39 pm »

-point-
-counterpoint-
I will give you credit on the bowstring speed.  You've got me there, the arrow won't fly faster than the string.

However, you keep comparing adamantine arrows to different projectiles, and it simply doesn't work like that.  An anti-tank round is designed to bludgeon through armor, or to penetrate it slightly and then explode inside the armor.  Anti-personnel rounds work because a person has negligible protection, you can penetrate a human with a powerful air rifle.  Hollow points will expand and cause wide-area damage, but they get very little penetration when they hit something harder than a human.  Don't see hollow-points being used against reinforced glass.  Instead you see FMJ being used, the iron jacket turning the bullet rigid and allowing it to punch through things which are solid.  An adamantine arrow would be comparable to a very small, overpacked FMJ - imagine that you used 2x or 3x the gunpowder on a small-caliber FMJ round, and that instead of iron it were made of titanium.  It'd get amazing penetration, although it wouldn't penetrate a lot, it would just blow pin-holes through material.  Ideally, an adamantine bolt would be able to sluice through material like a pneumatic needle or somesuch, and could be made with bleeder holes in case it were imbedded in a foe.

However, all of this is moot with arrows.  You can't get enough speed with a bow to do that, so I concede the point.  If we had explosively fired (ie, not spring loaded or thrown) harpoon shooters, then an adamantine harpoon would do a fantastic job.

Gizogin

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Re: Adamantine Science and physics quirks
« Reply #200 on: March 15, 2012, 06:01:48 pm »

Regarding adamantine projectiles:
There would presumably be a tradeoff involved.  You could give the projectile a dense core to increase momentum and applied force, but then you sacrifice the minimum thinness your arrow can attain, thus increasing air resistance.  I also imagine any sort of adamantine projectile would require a radically new form of propulsion.  We've already covered the disadvantages of bows, but there's at least one other consideration: an arrow, in order to be accurate, has to be able to flex to get around the bow's grip.  Adamantine does not flex at all, so a wholly adamantine arrow would be, at best, hideously inaccurate.  You could give the arrow a wooden shaft, but then you potentially sacrifice the thinness that would be an adamantine arrow's main draw (no pun intended).
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rtg593

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Re: Adamantine Science and physics quirks
« Reply #201 on: March 15, 2012, 06:16:16 pm »

... My head hurts :p I've not considered topics on this high a level for some time...

Thank you, bay12, lol.
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wierd

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Re: Adamantine Science and physics quirks
« Reply #202 on: March 15, 2012, 06:17:34 pm »

This is true with an ordinary bow, but not quite as much with a crossbow.

For the core, a thin "wire" of slade would offer a ton of added weight for increased ballistic stability and momentum, and could be inserted into a thin groove at 60degree radial rotation from each other. (Quarrel will have 3 such slits, with a weighted and measured slade wire tamped down inside.)

This would have 3 net positive effects:

The arrow would have greater weight around the circumference of the shaft, without increasing diamater, helping to improve rotational torque which holds the arrow straight in flight

The arrow now has convenient bleeder slits in it.

The arrow now has enough mass to punch through heavy armor.
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forsaken1111

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Re: Adamantine Science and physics quirks
« Reply #203 on: March 15, 2012, 06:21:42 pm »

And now we know why dwarves don't use bows.
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Gizogin

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Re: Adamantine Science and physics quirks
« Reply #204 on: March 15, 2012, 06:41:26 pm »

I'm less sure about crossbows, but I'm fairly certain a quarrel fired from a crossbow would still need to flex.  I suppose one could design a crossbow in such a way that the arms do not impede the flight of the quarrel, but then it crosses into the territory of slingshots or other types of weaponry.

Anyway, as I've said, adamantine does not really conform well to any type of projectile weaponry we currently have.
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Amallar

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Re: Adamantine Science and physics quirks
« Reply #205 on: March 15, 2012, 06:46:12 pm »

I don't understand this obsession with adamantine medieval ballistics.

Wouldn't it be more practical to just design an adamantine cannon? Adamantine's lack of standard energetic interaction and unusual structure renders it capable of dispersing recoil at ludicrous proportions, and it is durable enough that it overcomes the problems faced by longbarrel cannons designed to improve kinetic force at the expense of structural integrity. Adamantine cannons are also light enough that they are feasibly portable; miniaturisation of such, in fact, could effectively render simple flintlocks.

It is not impractical on the dwarven perspective, either. Dwarves are already capable of manipulating this substance (*ahem* psionics) in whatever fashion they choose. Metal spheres are not a challenge for dwarves. Dwarves already have access to their highly combustive booze as a form of a basic explosive, and it is assumed that dwarves already possess enough access and knowledge on earthen substances to correctly identify what would be ideal for rendering more advanced combustive materiel. Advanced metallurgy and high understanding of ballistic physics is also not a problem, here. Dwarves understand metallurgy to an extent comparable to master metallurgers today (probably beyond), and a basic grapeshot fired in ridiculous quantities by massive adamantine cannons does not require an understanding of physics to be effective on a battlefield.

Portable adamantine cannons designed to fire grapeshot should be an option. Why isn't it an option?
« Last Edit: March 15, 2012, 06:51:03 pm by Amallar »
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Re: Could an adamantine battle axe really kill?
« Reply #206 on: March 15, 2012, 06:51:21 pm »

-point-
-counterpoint-
I will give you credit on the bowstring speed.  You've got me there, the arrow won't fly faster than the string.

However, you keep comparing adamantine arrows to different projectiles, and it simply doesn't work like that.  An anti-tank round is designed to bludgeon through armor, or to penetrate it slightly and then explode inside the armor.  Anti-personnel rounds work because a person has negligible protection, you can penetrate a human with a powerful air rifle.  Hollow points will expand and cause wide-area damage, but they get very little penetration when they hit something harder than a human.  Don't see hollow-points being used against reinforced glass.  Instead you see FMJ being used, the iron jacket turning the bullet rigid and allowing it to punch through things which are solid.  An adamantine arrow would be comparable to a very small, overpacked FMJ - imagine that you used 2x or 3x the gunpowder on a small-caliber FMJ round, and that instead of iron it were made of titanium.  It'd get amazing penetration, although it wouldn't penetrate a lot, it would just blow pin-holes through material.  Ideally, an adamantine bolt would be able to sluice through material like a pneumatic needle or somesuch, and could be made with bleeder holes in case it were imbedded in a foe.

However, all of this is moot with arrows.  You can't get enough speed with a bow to do that, so I concede the point.  If we had explosively fired (ie, not spring loaded or thrown) harpoon shooters, then an adamantine harpoon would do a fantastic job.

Modern anti-tank rounds don't contain any explosive. They are pure kinetic energy penetrators. A thin rod with fins, much like a big metal arrow. A typical one fired from a 120mm cannon is maybe 20mm or so thick and 50cm long. In the cannon it is surrounded by blocks of light material known as sabots (they were originally wood and looked somewhat like Dutch shoes, which are called sabots). The sabots fall off as soon as the round leaves the barrel, leaving the low-drag penetrator to fly onward. This allows a large powder charge to push on a small diameter rod, much like your suggestion. They don't need to explode because when they penetrate the armor they make a decent chunk of the interior of the armor spall off and act like shrapnel. But even without spalling, just having the penetrator pass through an enclosed space at high speed makes enough of a shockwave to kill the occupants. But this all depends on the density of the projectile so it can maintain its velocity and have enough kinetic energy to punch through the armor. That's why they use depleted uranium. It's the densest reasonably priced material.

In small arms, armor piercing rounds are much like a FMJ, with the usual copper jacket (iron would make too much wear in the barrel, I don't think I've ever heard of it being used for small arms) and lead filling, but with a dense rod (usually either tungsten or depleted uranium) in the center to do the penetration.

FMJ is really a fairly lousy round for just about any use except targets. They don't penetrate well through hard targets, and don't wound well. The later reason is why they are widely used, ironically. They are required by international law (I think it was one of the Hague conventions) for all military anti-personnel use because they are less lethal than expanding or exploding rounds. It's OK to lob big chunks of explosives onto troops, OK to run over them with large tracked vehicles, OK to set them on fire with napalm, but not OK to shoot them with bullets that will do a good job of killing them. Actually, I'm not sure napalm is OK for anti-personnel use. You may only be able to use it against equipment. Like the rifle the guy is carrying, or his uniform. That's OK. <shrug>

But anyway, density is absolutely required for a projectile that needs to penetrate a rigid material. A low density projectile will lose velocity too quickly to have any range. And even if it has the range, it still needs energy to punch a hole through anything. Even making a 1mm hole through steel armor requires displacing a 1mm cylindrical volume of steel, which takes energy no matter how sharp the point is. The steel has to be moved aside, and doesn't want to move. A thinner penetrator has less steel to move, but has less energy to do it with.

Cotton candy just wouldn't make a good projectile, regardless of how fast you launch it. At least not by itself. An adamantine bodkin on a wood arrow with be very nice for punching through plate or mail, though. And an adamantine broadhead on a wood arrow would slice through leather or flesh like a hot knife through butter. Would probably get through plate decently, too. Just like an adamantine axe blade with a lead weight to give some heft to the swing would be better than a pure admantine axe.
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saltmummy626

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Re: Adamantine Science and physics quirks
« Reply #207 on: March 15, 2012, 08:04:50 pm »

I think the fact that the dwarves are able to create a material so complex in its anatomical make up and crafting method and yet they cannot figure out how to put on socks or not seal themselves on inaccessible ledges is the baffling part of this conversation.
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Re: Adamantine Science and physics quirks
« Reply #208 on: March 15, 2012, 08:19:02 pm »

This is all so interesting!
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Mrhappyface

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Re: Adamantine Science and physics quirks
« Reply #209 on: March 15, 2012, 09:24:14 pm »

From what I remember from Physics, Adamantine's weight could be comparable to the heavier kinds of denim. Kevlar is about seven times as much, as steel is close to fifty times heavier.
Interestingly, the tensile strength of the most recent kind of Kevlar is 3,620 MPa while the highest grade steel wiring is about 2,000 MPa. Since Adamantine has roughly half the shattering point of steel, let's say that its MPa is around 4,000. That's some durable clothing.
Now let's go into pressure (Kpa): The yield tensile strength of steel is around 5.17106E5, Kevlar being 5.6E6, bulletproof ceramic being 6.3E6, and adamantine would be 1.3E6. Adamantine also doesn't seem to bend, just shatter.
Adamantine would see a lot better for use in plating, with steel chainmail to reinforce it. Modern body armor works on this principal, with the IOTV used by the US military having kevlar padding with ceramic inserts. All in all, it seems that Adamantine would be much more useful for economic (nails and ropes) and safety (armor) purposes rather than combat.
This is all really cool stuff. Thanks, OP!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Improved_Outer_Tactical_Vest
« Last Edit: March 15, 2012, 09:29:31 pm by Mrhappyface »
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