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Author Topic: !!SCIENCE!! Thread: Operation FPS Bomb  (Read 76670 times)

Psieye

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Re: !!SCIENCE!! Thread: Operation FPS Bomb
« Reply #60 on: March 15, 2012, 06:22:38 pm »

The accessibility of space has no noticeable effect.
What exactly do you mean here? Your data dump mentioned nothing about walling off the huge swaths of empty space you dug out. If you meant what I think you mean, then I have a fort that directly counters that statement. A large area of sand was dug out to train some new miners and FPS bombed. When I installed and locked doors to seal off the dug out space, FPS recovered.

I don't think I'll be able to get to 1,000,000 objects, as the game is getting extremely laggy just trying to look at some of these workshops that have 10,000 objects in them, apiece. 

Apparently, just looking at a workshop will cause lag based upon the number of items it can be related to.
Requesting a control: dump (but don't destroy) the items that are being churned out from the workshops. Alternatively, just deconstruct the workshops and rebuild elsewhere.

Ah heck, give me a couple days and I'll try to make time to run some !!SCIENCE!! from your fork save.
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Congrats, Psieye. This is the first time I've seen a derailed thread get put back on the rails.

NW_Kohaku

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Re: !!SCIENCE!! Thread: Operation FPS Bomb
« Reply #61 on: March 15, 2012, 06:28:15 pm »

Requesting a control: dump (but don't destroy) the items that are being churned out from the workshops. Alternatively, just deconstruct the workshops and rebuild elsewhere.

Ah heck, give me a couple days and I'll try to make time to run some !!SCIENCE!! from your fork save.

Deconstructing a workshop takes actually looking at it, unfortunately.

My plan was to go back to the initial setup save, and queue up 8 sets of "build 10,000 boulders" each to get to over 1,000,000 boulders between the workshops, and then the ninth queued task was the "destroy 100 sets of 100 boulders" task set on infinite repeat. 

The idea was that if I never needed to touch the workshops again, they could destroy them all automatically, but the problem is that the game lags out with that "destroy 100 sets of 100 boulders" operation. 

I'm trying to just leave the game alone for a couple hours and seeing if it will actually manage to complete the operation, anyway, at this point, and hoping for the best...  It's just not done yet.
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Gizogin

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Re: !!SCIENCE!! Thread: Operation FPS Bomb
« Reply #62 on: March 15, 2012, 06:35:39 pm »

Excellent !!SCIENCE!! here, posting to watch.
Also, I started reading when there were only three pages, but in the time it took me to read those three pages, the number had grown to five.
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Psieye

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Re: !!SCIENCE!! Thread: Operation FPS Bomb
« Reply #63 on: March 15, 2012, 06:36:54 pm »

Requesting a control: dump (but don't destroy) the items that are being churned out from the workshops. Alternatively, just deconstruct the workshops and rebuild elsewhere.

Ah heck, give me a couple days and I'll try to make time to run some !!SCIENCE!! from your fork save.

Deconstructing a workshop takes actually looking at it, unfortunately.
Ah, so it doesn't care whether you're looking at it in 'q' or 't' view. Hmm, and it'd get silly if we were to mess around with making the workshops vaporise or something. Ok, I'm starting to see what I want to do with my experiment.
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Congrats, Psieye. This is the first time I've seen a derailed thread get put back on the rails.

NW_Kohaku

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Re: !!SCIENCE!! Thread: Operation FPS Bomb
« Reply #64 on: March 15, 2012, 06:54:09 pm »

Hahahaha... This is really pitiful... I left it up for about an hour before it rendered another frame. 

I guess I'm just going to have to leave this thing running overnight before I get results on the next few frames of the game.

I'm honestly waffling on whether or not to leave it running, or try to come back and see if I can't make a less self-destructive operation.
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Personally, I like [DF] because after climbing the damned learning cliff, I'm too elitist to consider not liking it.
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robertheinrich

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Re: !!SCIENCE!! Thread: Operation FPS Bomb
« Reply #65 on: March 15, 2012, 07:02:37 pm »

This thread is cute <3
and soooo pointless.

Using a modded version of the game.
Trying to find reasons for FPS decay.

Without access to the source.
Which you will never have.

Without attention of the coder.
Which you will never get.


But it made me chuckle a bit after I was quite frustrated that my recent fortress was eradicated while I was trying to pierce the aquifer and my last adventurer got both his arms cut off by thieves. Sometimes it helps to know that there are people out there who waste their time witn stuff much more pointless than I do.
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Kofthefens

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Re: !!SCIENCE!! Thread: Operation FPS Bomb
« Reply #66 on: March 15, 2012, 07:04:15 pm »

This thread is cute <3
and soooo pointless.

Using a modded version of the game.
Trying to find reasons for FPS decay.

Without access to the source.
Which you will never have.

Without attention of the coder.
Which you will never get.


But it made me chuckle a bit after I was quite frustrated that my recent fortress was eradicated while I was trying to pierce the aquifer and my last adventurer got both his arms cut off by thieves. Sometimes it helps to know that there are people out there who waste their time witn stuff much more pointless than I do.

No need to be rude, if you think this isn't helpful. However, many people, myself included, think that this !!Science!! is interesting.
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Sphalerite

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Re: !!SCIENCE!! Thread: Operation FPS Bomb
« Reply #67 on: March 15, 2012, 07:05:59 pm »

This thread is far from pointless, and as someone who has seen many long-running fortresses become unplayable due to FPS drop, I'm finding the science fascinating.
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NW_Kohaku

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Re: !!SCIENCE!! Thread: Operation FPS Bomb
« Reply #68 on: March 15, 2012, 07:10:59 pm »

This thread is cute <3
and soooo pointless.

Using a modded version of the game.
Trying to find reasons for FPS decay.

Without access to the source.
Which you will never have.

Without attention of the coder.
Which you will never get.


But it made me chuckle a bit after I was quite frustrated that my recent fortress was eradicated while I was trying to pierce the aquifer and my last adventurer got both his arms cut off by thieves. Sometimes it helps to know that there are people out there who waste their time witn stuff much more pointless than I do.

Actually, some reverse-engineering of the code has taken place with the DF Hack project, and talking with them has shown me that some of my deductions were correct, and some of them were incorrect.  The game does use a global item index vector, although it seems to clean itself better than I initially thought it would, considering the complaints I have heard out of others who made restricted functionality forts.

The purpose is to isolate the actual causes of FPS decay, which makes it much more likely that they will be addressed, and if nothing else, dispells some myths about the game.

Further, this does have the ability to get the attention of Toady, as this science is simply the pre-requisite for proving where the flaws are in the code to get it on the bug tracker, and Toady is ramming through the bug tracker bugs at this very moment.
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Personally, I like [DF] because after climbing the damned learning cliff, I'm too elitist to consider not liking it.
"And no Frankenstein-esque body part stitching?"
"Not yet"

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kaijyuu

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Re: !!SCIENCE!! Thread: Operation FPS Bomb
« Reply #69 on: March 15, 2012, 07:24:58 pm »

Hell even if Toady does squat, we'll know exactly what to avoid.


And open space that isn't pathable definitely contributes to framerate issues. Make two identical worlds/embarks, with the sole exception of the z-levels above the surface. Even only having 1 z level gives me a noticeable bump at high framerates (got 1300 at the start of my latest embark, woo).
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Kogut

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Re: !!SCIENCE!! Thread: Operation FPS Bomb
« Reply #70 on: March 15, 2012, 07:41:38 pm »

Without attention of the coder.
Which you will never get.

See poll in my signature. Compare with recent devlogs.
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Vorthon

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Re: !!SCIENCE!! Thread: Operation FPS Bomb
« Reply #71 on: March 15, 2012, 08:18:26 pm »

This thread is cute <3
and soooo pointless.

Using a modded version of the game.
Trying to find reasons for FPS decay.

Without access to the source.
Which you will never have.

Without attention of the coder.
Which you will never get.


But it made me chuckle a bit after I was quite frustrated that my recent fortress was eradicated while I was trying to pierce the aquifer and my last adventurer got both his arms cut off by thieves. Sometimes it helps to know that there are people out there who waste their time witn stuff much more pointless than I do.

I smell a troll... Smells like onions and unwashed hair.

Also, posting to watch.
« Last Edit: March 15, 2012, 08:20:02 pm by Vorthon »
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Girlinhat

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Re: !!SCIENCE!! Thread: Operation FPS Bomb
« Reply #72 on: March 15, 2012, 08:29:13 pm »

Hell even if Toady does squat, we'll know exactly what to avoid.


And open space that isn't pathable definitely contributes to framerate issues. Make two identical worlds/embarks, with the sole exception of the z-levels above the surface. Even only having 1 z level gives me a noticeable bump at high framerates (got 1300 at the start of my latest embark, woo).
That's different.  Available Z levels are known to cause issues, but the number of total levels is static.  If you have a layer of solid stone and a layer of totally mined out stone, it's still a layer.  The difference is, if the dwarf can path through it or not.  If they can, you incur pathing lag atop of world size lag.  If they cannot, you only have standard lag.

kaijyuu

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Re: !!SCIENCE!! Thread: Operation FPS Bomb
« Reply #73 on: March 15, 2012, 08:39:04 pm »

But sealing off that newly opened space doesn't really increase framerate. I doubt the pathing engine is so stupid as to check places it can't possibly reach, so pathing is not the (most significant) cause of increased lag with mined out areas, and not a cause at all for sealed ones.


Besides, increased map size wouldn't cause issues if map tiles themselves didn't eat up CPU. Remove all flying units and check again if you're worried that too is pathing. On top of that, I do think it safe to assume non-revealed tiles cause less issues than revealed ones (no reason to to temperature checks/etc), so it could very well be a major source of FPS drain on older forts.




Tangentially related: I have a save that's right before a huge FPS drop that I can't pinpoint the cause of. It seems to be based on time of the year. Should I toss it on the bug tracker?
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Quote from: Chesterton
For, in order that men should resist injustice, something more is necessary than that they should think injustice unpleasant. They must think injustice absurd; above all, they must think it startling. They must retain the violence of a virgin astonishment. When the pessimist looks at any infamy, it is to him, after all, only a repetition of the infamy of existence. But the optimist sees injustice as something discordant and unexpected, and it stings him into action.

NW_Kohaku

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Re: !!SCIENCE!! Thread: Operation FPS Bomb
« Reply #74 on: March 15, 2012, 08:45:30 pm »

Caverns have stuff happening in them regardless of whether they have been revealed or not.  In fact, revealing the caverns after 5 years or so can result in caverns that have been almost completely taken over by fungal trees and underground crop shrubs. 

Crundle packs and Giant Cave Spiders will fight it out even if you never know, as will FBs and any hidden cave civ, and there is a reason the caverns will be covered in cave spider webs when you open them for the first time. 

HFS is the only thing where nothing spawns or moves until you reveal it, and HFS produces MASSIVE lag if you reveal and then seal it. 
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Personally, I like [DF] because after climbing the damned learning cliff, I'm too elitist to consider not liking it.
"And no Frankenstein-esque body part stitching?"
"Not yet"

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