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Author Topic: Religion, Priests, and ideas for implementation.  (Read 5207 times)

Urist McSpike

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Religion, Priests, and ideas for implementation.
« on: March 23, 2012, 07:10:23 pm »

I recently read the Hall of Legends archive of Nist Akath, and that, along with the inclusion of vampires, necromancers, ghosts, zombies and skeletons, turned my thoughts toward the traditional fantasy counter - gods, and those who worship them.  And so, I spent some time contemplating the issue, and came up with this.  (Note: My ideas are mainly aimed at Fortress mode - I really haven't done much with Adventure mode.)

While I have no idea how difficult it would be to add a dwarven desire for worship, it should, in my opinion, be a "want" rather than a "need".  It should be the kind of thing that dwarves will make use of if it's available, like a statue garden or zoo, instead of a hard requirement, like food & drink.  A lack of religion should not generate bad thoughts, as dwarves can always toss off a quick prayer to Armok as they labor.  At the most basic, religion would provide a small amount of happy thoughts.  With much effort, it could also provide players a way to help combat evil.

Also, I'm not sure if every dwarven diety should be available to every settlement, or if there should be regional dieties based on world generation.  I don't even know if they're set for every world, or randomly generated - I've honestly never paid attention to them, other than noticing the occasional diety on a dwarf's relationship page.

On to the details:

The Altar
   An altar is an item of furniture, and follows all of the traditional rules of stockpile storage and placement.  Creating an altar is a two part process - a rock table is crafted in a Mason's Workshop, and is then engraved in a Craftsdwarf Workship.  When the "Engrave Altar" job is selected, a menu of all available deities will be shown, along with the number of altars already available for each deity.  The quality of the altar will be based on the quality of the table used, the engraver's skill, and may be further enhanced by being encrusted with gems.  Placing an altar is as simple as placing a table - select Altar, the location, expand the menu to choose a specific altar if desired, and place it.

   Dwarves will pray at an altar as they desire, which will generate a +1 happy thought (on the scale of 1-10).  If they actually worship the deity the alter was engraved to, they will get a bonus +1 happy thought.  Happy thoughts will be modified by the quality of the altar.

   A simple altar will only be usable by a small number of dwarves per (week?  month?) limited time period.  Perhaps it would only be usable by one dwarf at a time, like a 1-tile pond.


The Temple
   A temple is a room designation, that is defined from a placed altar, in the same way a dining room or bedroom is designated from a table or bed.  The advantages of designating a temple are three-fold.  First, the quality can be enhanced by placing other pieces of high-quality furniture in the room or by engraving the stonework, which boosts the happiness gained.  Second, more dwarves will be able to pray at the same time.  Third, and probably more important, is that the room may be assigned to a dwarf, who will then become a Priest (or Priestess).


Priests & Priestesses
   A priest is created by assigning a dwarf to an altar, after a temple has been designated from that altar.  Priests will show up on the noble screen, and would be on about the same social level as military captains.  Requirements would be simple, and they would generate no demands.  Instead of creating another job (such as Mason), they would simply use some social skills, like the Mayor, Broker & Bookkeeper do.  Possible skills used might be Organizer, Consoler,  Conversationalist, and Judge of Intent.  Possibly also Pacifier, Intimidator, or Comedian, based on their deity.

   A priest will tend their temple, organizing worship services.  This will result in more dwarves being able to satisfy their religion want than an untended temple would, and also give a boost to the happy thoughts generated.  Another important task would be to hold a Funeral or Requiem service.  Funerals would be held after a dwarf's body has been interred, and would help ease the suffering (bad thoughts) of dwarves close to the deceased.  A Requiem service would perform a similar function after a Memorial Slab has been created & placed, when a corpse is lost or not able to be recovered, but would not be as effective.  The final task of an ordinary priest would be to hold a special Requiem in case of a haunting.  This would temporarily lay a ghost to rest, perhaps only for six months.

   I would imagine all of these to be automatic, although maybe the player should be able to order funerals & requiems, in case they have a lot of deaths.  Multiple requiems for the same deceased dwarf would have rapidly diminishing returns, although they would still count as worship services.  Multiple priests could be assigned to the same altar, although only one service could be going on at once.  There might be other types of activities available, such as simply talking to fellow worshipers, or actively converting dwarves without a deity.


The High Priest/Priestess
   Once a settlement is large enough (qualifies for Barony?), this new noble position would be available.  A High Priest has bigger requirements, requiring a grand temple to their deity, as well as grand rooms.  (About on the level of a Baron's requirements.)  They might generate demands, although I haven't thought much about what they might be.  This noble would also be very useful, unlike some others.

   A High Priest will occasionally organize a worship service, which will give a larger boost to happiness, and having one appointed will also generate a trickle of happy thoughts from the nobles, as they don't have to attend worship with the common rabble.  Most of the time, they will wander around, like a stuck-up noble.  But the main advantage of having a High Priest lies in their other (player ordered?) jobs...

   Exorcism - engage in spiritual combat with a ghost, permanently "killing" it.  This would generate some unhappy thoughts from friends & relatives of the deceased, as the soul was destroyed, not laid to rest.  (But it'd be great for those pesky caravan guards!)

   Sanctify - hallowed ground would prevent, or slow, the creation of undead on it.  It might also cause damage to undead, or simply act like a restricted/low usage travel zone.  I thought about making this "cost" amulets or figurines to create - say, one amulet per 3x3 area.  It would also be a temporary blessing, fading after 6 months or a year.  This would prevent the player from sanctifying the entire map, and give a reason to keep making crafts.  I imagine the process as more like building a farm plot, instead of placing a zone - once it's set by the player, the High Priest has to go "work" at it to actually create it.

   Vampire Hunter D(warf) - suspicious activity might set a High Priest on the trail of a vampire.  Perhaps they could identifiy the creature, or allow it to be punished/destroyed.  I have no experience with vampires yet, although I just had a missing dwarf found "drained of blood" in my current fort, so I have no idea how they are revealed or prosecuted.
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NW_Kohaku

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Re: Religion, Priests, and ideas for implementation.
« Reply #1 on: March 23, 2012, 07:51:38 pm »

First, welcome to the forums.

I'm not sure how much you might have lurked around these forums before signing up, but you should be aware that Toady does intend to make religion a more major part of the game eventually, although it's a matter of whenever he gets around to it, and he definitely is fleshing out deities more what with his building temples in adventure mode and having gods curse people into vampires and such.

Sorry if this is a little rambling, but I'm going to comment as I read...

I would argue that religion should, at some point in establishing a major fortress, become more need than want.  Unhappy thoughts minimum once you hit a certain size or age.

Something as small as a minor temple should not be a serious burden on even new players (provided building such temples is fairly straightforward).

As for number of deities, I remember that in the old Pharaoh/Emperor/Caesar games, you would have to give religious coverage to everyone who wanted that sort of religion (they would go to different religions based upon class), but there would be things like grand temples that were monumental buildings that you could only have one of, but would grant special divine favor/protection for.



Speaking from a bit of experience, you might want to lay off the implementation details that Toady will probably be able to figure out on his own.  Mostly just because it bloats up your posts with extra words, and the longer your original post is, the less people are likely to read it - even in a place as used to technical details as bay12, there's an awful lot of tl;dr going on. 

I'm looking specifically at things like the process for making an altar, too detailed.  Keep to the broad topics unless you really need to get detailed.



I'm pretty sure that if we get a temple, one other duty they'd have is weddings - right now, all dwarves who get married "decide to forgo formal ceremony".  That's probably because there isn't code in place for formal ceremonies, because they're waiting for temples to become a part of the game.



I honestly think a "Night Creature Slayer" or even "Inquisitor" type of dwarf is a good idea, but that it should be a separate job from a standard high priest job.

Conversely, I don't think that making "hallowed ground" by simply throwing amulets like ammo at the ground is necessarily a good idea.  Magical changes to the world should have more meaningful actions placed on them, although magic in general is very sketchy at this point.
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Jacob/Lee

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Re: Religion, Priests, and ideas for implementation.
« Reply #2 on: March 23, 2012, 08:19:13 pm »

Not related to the original post, but NW, I thought dwarves would throw a party in the dining hall or similar when they got married?

Of course, you need a dining hall to be designated for that to happen. Something a lot of players don't do.

NW_Kohaku

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Re: Religion, Priests, and ideas for implementation.
« Reply #3 on: March 23, 2012, 08:20:35 pm »

Not related to the original post, but NW, I thought dwarves would throw a party in the dining hall or similar when they got married?

Of course, you need a dining hall to be designated for that to happen. Something a lot of players don't do.

I've never seen it, and I designate dining halls... I might have just been unlucky, or never noticed when it was a wedding party, or something, though.
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UHaulDwarf

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Re: Religion, Priests, and ideas for implementation.
« Reply #4 on: March 23, 2012, 08:55:50 pm »

If there are going to be temples, there should be a option to make a temple a Pantheon.
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NW_Kohaku

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Re: Religion, Priests, and ideas for implementation.
« Reply #5 on: March 23, 2012, 08:59:08 pm »

If there are going to be temples, there should be a option to make a temple a Pantheon.

In the case of a zone-based temple, shouldn't that merely require multiple altars?
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Owlbread

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Re: Religion, Priests, and ideas for implementation.
« Reply #6 on: March 23, 2012, 09:25:24 pm »

Perhaps exorcisms could be applied to possessed dwarves if the mood may fail (perhaps possession could go beyond strange moods).

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UHaulDwarf

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Re: Religion, Priests, and ideas for implementation.
« Reply #7 on: March 24, 2012, 12:09:34 am »

If there are going to be temples, there should be a option to make a temple a Pantheon.

In the case of a zone-based temple, shouldn't that merely require multiple altars?

I was thinking room-based, but zone- based do makes more sense.

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Superior_Tomato

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Re: Religion, Priests, and ideas for implementation.
« Reply #8 on: March 24, 2012, 05:43:18 am »

Maybe religous-ness should be decided by a trait, such as the accepts change/detests change trait? Heavily religious dwarves would take time out of their day to pray, but would be easily pleased by a pretty altar/more time allowed to pray if there is a slider for such things.
Non-religious dwarves would not take time to pray, but would be less easy to please because of that lack of appreciation for temples.
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aepurniet

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Re: Religion, Priests, and ideas for implementation.
« Reply #9 on: March 24, 2012, 06:10:06 am »

i like room based. a religious trait would be nice, but this should also play with other traits. 

i also think some dwarves should have gods they dont believe in. (or have been scorned by). seeing that alter would generate an unhappy thought. seeing that alter in a temple of their god would generate a really unhappy thought.  having no religious outlet would generate unhappy thoughts after a while. i dont think the religion mechanics should just be generating happy thoughts, my dwarves are already always ecstatic. there should be some give and take, forcing the player to make some tough decisions, that will make some dwarves happy, and some unhappy.

god preferences should pass from parents to child, like 90%, small chance of conversion to new gods, or other popular gods at the fortress.  there should be a chance for a child to grow up a heretic and proselytize other gods.

successful religious worship temporarily should imbue dwarves with some bonuses from their specific god.
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Gotdamnmiracle

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Re: Religion, Priests, and ideas for implementation.
« Reply #10 on: March 24, 2012, 05:34:41 pm »

I think that the worship should provide no or little bonuses but the lack of worship would be destructive. Like the Aztec gods. Maybe some gods would be a little lighter and throw a season of bounty your way or a blessing upon a dwarf. Also how do people feel about demigods? I think it would be frickin' cool to have the god of war and fortresses sling a child into one of my bearded women. Also maybe how much the gods pay attention to you (bonuses and consequences) would be based off of how big your fort is/created wealth/exported wealth/something else?

What yall think?
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NW_Kohaku

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Re: Religion, Priests, and ideas for implementation.
« Reply #11 on: March 24, 2012, 05:44:06 pm »

I thought the point of the Aztec religion was that it was basically the justification for their extremely authoritarian and controlling central theocratic government. 

The religious ceremonies, including ever-more ostentatious human sacrifices, were there to maintain strict, regimented control over the populace through religious zealotry.  They became more and more elaborate as the weight of the empire showed, and more zeal was needed to paper over the holes.

But then, I don't really know all that much about the Aztecs, so maybe I'm just reading too much into a few History Channel specials I saw.
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Gotdamnmiracle

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Re: Religion, Priests, and ideas for implementation.
« Reply #12 on: March 24, 2012, 05:52:11 pm »

I thought the point of the Aztec religion was that it was basically the justification for their extremely authoritarian and controlling central theocratic government. 

The religious ceremonies, including ever-more ostentatious human sacrifices, were there to maintain strict, regimented control over the populace through religious zealotry.  They became more and more elaborate as the weight of the empire showed, and more zeal was needed to paper over the holes.

But then, I don't really know all that much about the Aztecs, so maybe I'm just reading too much into a few History Channel specials I saw.

I think your putting the chicken before the egg there. Y'see they weren't the only ones in the region with human sacrifice. There were many nations where human sacrifice was common practice. The Aztecs (or Mexica) just happened to be the strongest of all of them. And the whole base of allowing for human sacrifice was to appease gods who always hungered.

In other words they never saw a "blessing" as a blessing but if your house burned down you sure pissed someone off. Plus their mainline god was the god of war. That wasn't the case with all of the peoples in the area. It worked like Hindu sort of, where there are so many gods it's hard to keep up, and with so many languages there were different names for the same assortment of gods.
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Bytyan

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Re: Religion, Priests, and ideas for implementation.
« Reply #13 on: March 24, 2012, 08:14:32 pm »

I thought the point of the Aztec religion was that it was basically the justification for their extremely authoritarian and controlling central theocratic government. 

The religious ceremonies, including ever-more ostentatious human sacrifices, were there to maintain strict, regimented control over the populace through religious zealotry.  They became more and more elaborate as the weight of the empire showed, and more zeal was needed to paper over the holes.

But then, I don't really know all that much about the Aztecs, so maybe I'm just reading too much into a few History Channel specials I saw.

And this sounds incredibly dwarfish to me. You can't get much more authoritarian then omniscient cloud control leading a small settlement of dwarves to inevitable and poorly justified destruction, pacifying leaders with wealth and grandeur beyond their wildest dreams.
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Supersnes

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Re: Religion, Priests, and ideas for implementation.
« Reply #14 on: March 24, 2012, 11:07:06 pm »

 Here is a thread that may be an analog to this as a theocracy can begin if the worship of god(s)/demon(s) reach a certain boundary/point.     http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=105212.0
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