Dwarf Fortress > DF Suggestions
Semi-Sapiants
Owlbread:
It will eventually be possible to have some sort of "first contact" type interaction with animalmen. Their integration into your fortress to create a multi-racial society is quite reasonable, especially since we will have the power to invade Goblin fortresses, conquer them and install our own forced administrators to keep them under our control - hence, Goblin subjects in a Dwarfish empire. If I was a trog or another kind of semi-sapient being, I'd be quite happy to pull rocks around and make walls as long as it means I would have something to eat and somewhere to sleep. That's not slavery, provided I'm willing. Perhaps I could make myself useful by being physically stronger than the Dwarves and haul many items at once.
The humans are going to even have half-Dwarves and half Elves and such, judging by Threetoe's stories. Why can't we have Trog helpers?
NW_Kohaku:
I would agree with the notion that we need to have a better way to deal with non-dwarves in the game, and hopefully the Tavern stuff will help give us a better way to start dealing with that.
In fact, I've argued most of the things argued (on every side of the argument) before, in a more tongue-in-cheek thread that cast dwarves as the villains for trying to grace the "primitives" with "civilization", as it would almost certainly lead to completely amoral player behavior mirroring the worst of Imperialistic tradition.
Still, I am somewhat hesitant to bring it back up, because there were some... troublingly enthusiastic supporters of slavery and segregation.
A major part of the problem with the idea of slavery in particular, however, is that there simply are none of the internal social complexities in DF required to make slavery make any sense. There is no social stratification between a dwarven hauler and a dwarven gem cutter. There is no mechanic for the very real impacts that slavery had upon society, like the fear of slave revolts.
What is the difference between a tigerman woodcutter and a dwarven woodcutter in a free society? Right now, there is no particular way to segregate out different races at all, except for the fact that non-dwarven units simply cannot have their labors directly meddled with. If an elven immigrant walks on the map with the "cooking" labor enabled, however, they'll start using a kitchen.
The problem is a fundamental lack of underlying components that such systems would need to be built upon. We need the basics of internal cultural strife to start dealing with integration into a culture in a meaningful way.
Avo:
It should be up to the player to decide how they play the game. The moment you start to remove major idea's because they might support "Amoral behavior" is the moment your game changes from a game into a tool for political indoctrination. Some people might see killing and eating animals as Amoral, would you remove that to?
NW_Kohaku:
--- Quote from: Avo on March 27, 2012, 05:49:59 pm ---It should be up to the player to decide how they play the game. The moment you start to remove major idea's because they might support "Amoral behavior" is the moment your game changes from a game into a tool for political indoctrination. Some people might see killing and eating animals as Amoral, would you remove that to?
--- End quote ---
Glad to hear it. You can help by voting for urine and fecesbeing added into the game, or voting for the number 18 ESV suggestion thread version.
Anyway, it's not about "removing major ideas because they might support amoral behavior", it's about representing them in a manner that is realistic.
It's fine to have a game where you can run a slave-holding society, provided slavery actually means something in the game, and isn't just another worker. Again, how would a slave be different from any other dwarf at this point in the game? Without there being things like slave revolts or internal political dissent, there is no meaning in putting such things into the game.
Splint:
Hey now, this is about making animal people members of your civ you can order around the same as dorfs. No need to get all huffy. And let's face it. In thew grand scheme the poor dorfs are all our slaves! See? it's equal already!
Come on Badgerman Assault Squads! Let's go Badgerman Assault Squads!
And if Dfusion and Runesmith has taught us anything, it proves it works. I've had tigerman miners, antmen woodcutters, and moosepeople working in crafts shops while the dwarves slept ate and drank, and vice versa. Plus Tigermen make great haulers. I imagine them knocking eveyone out of thier way as they haul stuff; they friggen cook down halls when they haul stuff. And from what it looks like, most animalmen are human sized so you can just buy stuff for them off human caravans.
Plus the animal men can compensate for the dwarves lack of aboveground effectivness. Plus, some players would segregate them regardless. Personally I'd keep all my woodcutters and carpenters in a topside complex with the animalmen from above while antmen and the like lived in the main complex with the cave-adapted dorfs.
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