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How many eggs should creatures lay at a time?

Original amounts (chickens 4-15, crocodiles 20-60)
Something in between.
Modest Mod's current amounts (chickens 2-4, crocodiles 4-8)
Fewer than that.

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Author Topic: Modest Mod 2.2 - Under new management  (Read 144438 times)

Quarterblue

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Re: Modest Mod 2.1 - Now with graphics support!
« Reply #240 on: September 07, 2013, 08:02:23 pm »

Awesome! Exactly what I needed.

Suggestion: add seeds for plants that currently yield nothing and can't be planted (kobold bulbs and bloated tubers come to my mind).
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Button

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Re: Modest Mod 2.1 - Now with graphics support!
« Reply #241 on: September 09, 2013, 12:21:03 am »

The creatures I gave [LARGE_PREDATOR], for Taverius's reference:

creature_birds_new
GIANT_SNOWY_OWL
GIANT_BARN_OWL
GIANT_GREAT_HORNED_OWL
GIANT_EAGLE

creature_bug_slug_new
GIANT_DAMSELFLY
GIANT_BARK_SCORPION
GIANT_MANTIS
GIANT_TICK
GIANT_MOSQUITO (though this is iffy since only the females should be LARGE_PREDATOR but I don't think that's a valid caste-level tag?)
GIANT_JUMPING_SPIDER
GIANT_MOON_SNAIL
GIANT_BROWN_RECLUSE_SPIDER

creature_desert_new
GIANT_GILA_MONSTER
GIANT_LEOPARD_GECKO

creature_large_ocean
FISH_SWORDFISH (not giant but it was missing the tag despite its description)
FISH_MARLIN (same)
FISH_BARRACUDA_GREAT (same)
GIANT_NARWHAL

creature_large_temperate
Removed LARGE_PREDATOR from BEAR_BLACK because they're not all that aggressive irl.

creature_mountain_new
GIANT_WOLVERINE

creature_ocean_new
GIANT_OCTOPUS
GIANT_CRAB
LEOPARD_SEAL (GIANT_LEOPARD_SEAL will inherit this via templating)
GIANT_CUTTLEFISH
ORCA
SPERM_WHALE
ELEPHANT_SEAL
GIANT_HARP_SEAL
GIANT_NAUTILUS

Also it looks like the Modest Mod forgot to give octopodes children and the [PET] tag.

creature_riverlakepool_new
GIANT_SNAPPING_TURTLE
GIANT_LEECH
GIANT_MINK

creature_small_ocean
GIGANTIC SQUID

creature_temperate_new
GIANT_COYOTE
GIANT_ADDER
GIANT_KINGSNAKE
GIANT_BOBCAT
GIANT_SKUNK
GIANT_GREEN_TREE_FROG
GIANT_RATTLESNAKE
GIANT_WEASEL
GIANT_COPPERHEAD_SNAKE
GIANT_DINGO

creature_tropical_new
GIANT_ANACONDA
GIANT_MONITOR_LIZARD
GIANT_KING_COBRA
GIANT_OCELOT
GIANT_JACKAL
GIANT_BLACK_MAMBA
GIANT_BUSHMASTER
GIANT_PYTHON

creature_tundra_taiga_new
GIANT_STOAT
GIANT_LYNX
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I used to work on Modest Mod and Plant Fixes.

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Button

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Re: Modest Mod 2.1 - Now with graphics support!
« Reply #242 on: September 09, 2013, 12:40:50 am »

Double posting for separating information that was requested of me and further suggestions!

http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=128536.msg4404924#msg4404924 Creature variation fixes for dealing with vermin variation bugs. Note that these tags need to be added to the end of each creature variation.

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I used to work on Modest Mod and Plant Fixes.

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Taverius

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Re: Modest Mod 2.1 - Now with graphics support!
« Reply #243 on: September 09, 2013, 06:58:46 pm »

creature_large_ocean
FISH_SWORDFISH (not giant but it was missing the tag despite its description)
FISH_MARLIN (same)
FISH_BARRACUDA_GREAT (same)

Not agreeing here. I did give them BONECARN, and AMBUSHPREDATOR in the barracuda's case, but I don't see them chasing dorfs across the map. The barracuda is the most aggressive of the three and even then nearly all of the few reported attack cases are one bite when confusing something shiny a person has for a fish.

Also it looks like the Modest Mod forgot to give octopodes children and the [PET] tag.

Which ones? A surprising number of them are vermin, iirc.
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Quarterblue

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Re: Modest Mod 2.1 - Now with graphics support!
« Reply #244 on: September 10, 2013, 04:20:57 am »

Two things have just crossed my mind:

Purring maggots should be patched so they appear in the first cavern layer, so you can embark with dwarven cheese.

The egg-laying nerf is controversial at best, has no reason to be at worst. Most of the clutch size estimates are actually lower than their real-life counterparts, if you examine the raws. Yes, crocodiles do lay that many eggs. Is it unbalanced and broken? Maybe. Does it matter? No, because DF is, after all, a world simulator; and reality happens to be unbalanced.
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Taverius

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Re: Modest Mod 2.1 - Now with graphics support!
« Reply #245 on: September 10, 2013, 03:33:38 pm »

The egg-laying nerf is controversial at best, has no reason to be at worst. Most of the clutch size estimates are actually lower than their real-life counterparts, if you examine the raws. Yes, crocodiles do lay that many eggs. Is it unbalanced and broken? Maybe. Does it matter? No, because DF is, after all, a world simulator; and reality happens to be unbalanced.
My issue with it is not balance, but how it does not represent the real world.

Pregnancy in DF is twice a year, so its fine for chickens to lay the default number of eggs (possibly it should be higher), while crocodiles which breed every 2 years need to have that number divided by 4.
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Button

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Re: Modest Mod 2.1 - Now with graphics support!
« Reply #246 on: September 11, 2013, 12:43:38 pm »

Also it looks like the Modest Mod forgot to give octopodes children and the [PET] tag.

Which ones? A surprising number of them are vermin, iirc.

The one named OCTOPUS :). Even if it is vermin, plenty of vermin have child and/or pet tags, and since the octopus has creature variations it definitely should have [CHILD] and [PET_EXOTIC].
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CryptoCactus

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Re: Modest Mod 2.1 - Now with graphics support!
« Reply #247 on: September 12, 2013, 04:41:47 pm »

GIANT_MOSQUITO (though this is iffy since only the females should be LARGE_PREDATOR but I don't think that's a valid caste-level tag?)

LARGE_PREDATOR is a caste-level tag, according to the wiki. You should be able to only apply it to the female caste.

My issue with it is not balance, but how it does not represent the real world.

Pregnancy in DF is twice a year, so its fine for chickens to lay the default number of eggs (possibly it should be higher), while crocodiles which breed every 2 years need to have that number divided by 4.

And adders are ovoviviparous (sp?), meaning they basically give live birth and wouldn't leave any eggs to be harvested. And they only breed once every 2-3 years.

It would/will be a ton of research to really nail down average birthrates/quirks for everything, though.


edit: aaand I just realized it was, in fact, yourself I picked up the adder live birth thing from, hah. Ahem.
« Last Edit: September 12, 2013, 04:54:11 pm by CryptoCactus »
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[REFERENCE]Creature Errors - Starvation, immortals, unbreedables, pet problems:
http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=136374.0

My unofficial Modest Mod update:
http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=105871.msg5021367#msg5021367

Taverius

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Re: Modest Mod 2.1 - Now with graphics support!
« Reply #248 on: September 13, 2013, 12:42:03 am »

LARGE_PREDATOR is a caste-level tag, according to the wiki. You should be able to only apply it to the female caste.
Yes it is, the problem with using it that way is that (apparently) there is a limit of 1 LARGE_PREDATOR race per biome (possibly 2 in savage biomes). If you make this CASTE, will it spawn the whole race, or just one sex, or none because it fails the test? Unknown behaviour, I think. Needs !!!SCIENCE!!!

It would/will be a ton of research to really nail down average birthrates/quirks for everything, though.
Tell me about it. I've been at it 6 days and I'm at CROCODILE.
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CryptoCactus

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Re: Modest Mod 2.1 - Now with graphics support!
« Reply #249 on: September 13, 2013, 09:12:27 am »

It would/will be a ton of research to really nail down average birthrates/quirks for everything, though.
Tell me about it. I've been at it 6 days and I'm at CROCODILE.

Good on ya, mate. :p You are more patient than I am. I do look forward to the results, though.



To Igfig: just some random misc stuff I always do in my own personal mods that you might or might not like, copied from my own notes and commented on -

  • Cats no-adopt-owner you've already got this covered in your optional modules
  • Femdwarves have beards - because chicks without beards are suspiciously elfy
  • Black mamba clutch size changed to 8-13 (increase from MM, decrease from vanilla) to more accurately represent mamba's 15-25 eggs/year this is more to do with the egg debate currently going on, I just think black mambas in particular are cool
  • Add seeds to all overground plants
  • Make valley herb brewable since salve is useless except for trading (I called it golden wine and gave it mat_value of 20)
  • Underground plants grow all year (there are no seasons underground!)
  • Underground plants take one full season (1008 growdur) to grow, to compensate. (Some folks prefer them to take longer, but I think one season is a good compromise between vanilla and more extreme modded growdurs)
  • Pig tail thread value down to 1, silk thread value up to 3 (due to relative difficulty of acquirement and the IRL historical value of silk)
  • Replace tiny baby-man goblins with large hulking orcs, because FUN probably beyond the intended scope of MM
  • Dragons - put the "terrifying" back in "terrifying majesty". I guess this would probably be a more optional module thing. I usually increase size, natural_skills, make "claw" a can_latch attack, add a tail slap, increase scale rel_thickness to 5, add [FLIER] and 2WINGS, remove [MOUNT_EXOTIC] because nobody rides dragons and also pathing issues, remove [TRAINABLE] because they're already friggin' dragons, they don't need training, add [TRAPAVOID] mostly because lolololohuehue cagetraps, and sometimes add [PRONE_TO_RAGE:x] and [CRAZED] to make them terrifying annihilation machines that constantly rampage in worldgen. And on a similar note...
  • Remove [LIMB] from wings, because wing-wrestling seems silly to me. "The Dragon grabs Urist McSadface by the third left molar with His right wing"... what.

None of it is difficult or world-shattering stuff because I'm just an amateur, but if you want raws for any of it, I've got 'em.
« Last Edit: September 13, 2013, 09:24:01 am by CryptoCactus »
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[REFERENCE]Creature Errors - Starvation, immortals, unbreedables, pet problems:
http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=136374.0

My unofficial Modest Mod update:
http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=105871.msg5021367#msg5021367

Taverius

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Re: Modest Mod 2.1 - Now with graphics support!
« Reply #250 on: September 14, 2013, 12:08:34 am »

  • Underground plants take one full season (1008 growdur) to grow, to compensate. (Some folks prefer them to take longer, but I think one season is a good compromise between vanilla and more extreme modded growdurs)
  • Pig tail thread value down to 1, silk thread value up to 3 (due to relative difficulty of acquirement and the IRL historical value of silk)
I think the Seasonal Crops addon does that, no?
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CryptoCactus

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Re: Modest Mod 2.1 - Now with graphics support!
« Reply #251 on: September 14, 2013, 12:10:27 am »

Oh yeah. Well it does something with them anyway, I think Ig went a different route than me but yeah.





9/17/13 edit: I'll just tack this on here since my post is still the last one.

Couple other small ideas/fixes for Igfig that I've done with my personal mod that you might like:

Animal fixes:
  • Gave QUADRUPED_HOOF body plan both feet and hooves (hooves connect to feet which connect to legs). Hooves are the [STANCE] part. Feet don't do anything but connect. This should fix mitigate hooved animals not giving as much meat/fat/etc as expected. Decreased hoof relsize a bit since it is no longer the entire "foot". (NOTE: IRL hooves basically take the place of toes, not the entire foot, so this is not entirely unrealistic). (NOTE: This, combined with your grazing tweaks, will hopefully make the larger domestic grazers less unattractive as livestock, especially if more leather mod by sackhead, which relates the amount of tannable "skin" you get to the creature's bodysize, is also used.)
Weapon & usage tweaks:
  • Added size-appropriate weapons to dwarf entity - whip, scourge, dagger, flail, morningstar, scimitar (NOTE: this assumes Taverius' suggestion of decreasing whip/scourge size is also used, otherwise this may unbalance things in favor of the dwarves, because lightsabers.)
  • Changed wooden "training" weapons to match stats of regular weapons. Only "nerf" to them now is their material properties. A wooden spear still has a pointy end, after all. They are no longer referred to as "training x", for instance a spear made of oak would just be an "oaken spear". They are still made at a carpenter's shop as usual.
  • Added wooden ("training") maces and hammers, called clubs and mallets, respectively (e.g. "oaken club", "cedar mallet")
  • Removed training axes and training swords entirely, since training axes are exploitable, "wooden axes" are silly, and training swords were the only intentionally "non-lethal" wooden weapon left.
  • Primitive stone weapons - added CAN_STONE to spears, maces, daggers (can be made at craftshop with certain stone types -- see below -- plus a log). These should not be particularly good weapons, but they might do in a pinch before you have metal. Mostly for flavor and consistency, like a fine soup.


Stone/soil tweaks:
  • Added MAX_EDGE:10000 to chert, basalt, and quartzite, to allow them to be used in place of obsidian for making stone weapons. Obisidian is still the "sharpest".




edit2: edit harder!

I noticed you're using joben's original stats for missile weapons, rather than his revised ones. Was that intentional?

Spoiler (click to show/hide)



edit3: edit with a vengeance!

I hope I'm not overstepping with all the thoughts/suggestions. I'm easily excitable.
« Last Edit: September 17, 2013, 04:20:46 pm by CryptoCactus »
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[REFERENCE]Creature Errors - Starvation, immortals, unbreedables, pet problems:
http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=136374.0

My unofficial Modest Mod update:
http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=105871.msg5021367#msg5021367

gchristopher

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Re: Modest Mod 2.1 - Now with graphics support!
« Reply #252 on: September 19, 2013, 12:20:50 am »

This is the only mod I almost always use, because of the minimalism and sticking to correcting things that are clearly broken. What about increasing the overall population counts of animals at world gen? I'm not sure how to mod that in, but it seems like extinction happens much too easily for many creatures. One fort at one point in the world shouldn't be a black hole to biodiversity.
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WarRoot

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Re: Modest Mod 2.1 - Now with graphics support!
« Reply #253 on: September 19, 2013, 04:52:24 pm »

Hurray! I was looking for a mod like this, going to try it out with some test forts.

Edit:
Would it be possible to add auto processing for hair and maybe skulls too?
« Last Edit: September 21, 2013, 05:02:16 am by WarRoot »
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CryptoCactus

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Re: Modest Mod 2.1 - Now with graphics support!
« Reply #254 on: February 18, 2014, 03:58:22 pm »

CryptoCactus has been content lately. He dug a thread's grave recently. He admired own fine Submission lately.

MODEST MOD UNOFFICIAL PATCH v2.1b4
last update: 2/26/14

I have updated Modest Mod to incorporate most of the suggestions within this thread since Igfig's last update, plus a (very few) of my own. This package now also includes a custom patched .exe, with all the binary patches created to date (that I know of).


Update 2.1b4 just squashes on last little bug I introduced last time. Oops.





Update 2/25/14: I have written a few simple, optional modules that go along nicely with MMUP. They are a separate download at the bottom of this post. See the DFFD page for details.



DFHack is recommended but not strictly required.

Spoiler: Changelog 2.1b4: (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: Changelog 2.1b3: (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: Changelog 2.1b2 (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: Changelog 2.1b1 (click to show/hide)

If at any point Igfig wishes me to get rid of this, I will, because it's still 99% his work.

Download:
Modest Mod Unofficial Patch v2.1b4

Download Modules:
Unofficial Modules for MMUP 2.1b4

Let me know if I missed anything terrible, or if anyone whose suggestions and/or work I included would rather I not have.
« Last Edit: February 26, 2014, 03:19:40 pm by CryptoCactus »
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[REFERENCE]Creature Errors - Starvation, immortals, unbreedables, pet problems:
http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=136374.0

My unofficial Modest Mod update:
http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=105871.msg5021367#msg5021367
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