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Author Topic: Why one would give their money to the toad, rather than Sony  (Read 12659 times)

runlvlzero

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Re: Why one would give their money to the toad, rather than Sony
« Reply #60 on: April 13, 2012, 11:26:43 am »

World of Warcraft is popular because it's already popular.  There are only so many people who play MMORPGs, and those people all have played WoW already, and their friends all play WoW.  It doesn't even matter if the new MMORPG that comes out is a better game than WoW, because it won't have the playerbase of WoW, and that's why people will stay with WoW.  It's a self-perpetuating cycle. 

Absolutely true, hence the facebook of games... comment. Although there are niche communities still in a few other games, they are much harder to break into unless you already are in a group of real life friends who know each other in person. WoW is the random dude01 on the internet gets to play with randomdude02 with little barrier.

As for Skyrim, maybe they patched some things I didn't look at since I haven't been paying attention for the past couple months, but basically, out of the box, every skill besides the armor skills were utterly broken from a game balance perspective (Hey guys, look at me kill a bonus boss in one swing with my 10,000 attack power weapon!) (Hey guys, watch my stealth skills as I sit on the head of a guard in broad daylight without being seen and pickpocket him naked!) and many of the game features were placeholders at best.
Bethseda's games challenge were always in the meta gaming, all RPG's have munchkinism, even Baldur's gate the best RPG of all time had its EZ buttons.

Congratulations on getting married to a random personalityless NPC.  Enjoy your three lines of totally generic spouse text repeated forever and daily pie.
I don't think it will be possible to simulate a meaningful romantic relationship in virtual space for a long time without allot of "meta-gaming". This was a sales gimmick to try and compete with the Mass Effect and Dragon age series, not a core mechanic. I completely ignored it and it didn't effect my experience what-so-ever.

Yay for the new "endless quests" I can get from the thieves guild that involves breaking into the shack of a peasant who apparently either made their furniture themselves when they were drunk or stole it from the "failures" heap of a real carpenter, and have nothing more to their name than some rags for clothing, wooden spoons, and a single loaf of bread, but somehow suddenly have golden candelabras for you to steal.  They will be completely unguarded and provide absolutely zero challenge for you even if you don't bother stealthing at all.
They could have done better with these, but they are not really the main focus of the game. Those are just added extra's. In fact I only did two random side quests for the thieves guild. One was comparable, but not that bad, the other made sense. It's not much worse then some of the things even in Dwarf Fortress itself. The main quest for the thieves guild was compelling enough. The cities main quest in Markarth was very compelling too and fit in quite well the side quests around that area. I haven't played a game yet were "randomly generated quests" were any better or worse really.

But don't worry, there's the scripted quests that you will probably accidentally complete when you randomly wander into a cavern and pick up some random bauble and have no idea why you're suddenly on a new quest, only to find out you've just completely skipped all the good parts of the quest that provide any meaning or context, and just have to report in that bauble to the lost-and-found.
I hate this too, but the genre takes this for granted and foists waypoints and objectives on the player. With allot of the world randomly iterated even in production and not necessarily hand crafted, this is even necessary when cave X is almost the same as cave Y. I really hate this, but it was not unbearable. Baldur's gate, and Planescape are the only games in this genre that managed to avoid this crap.

Plus those other caves are basically linear dungeon crawls that essentially involve a set of enemies that are too weak to be even proper punching bags leading up to an arbitrary boss fight that, if those punching bags before provided any challenge, will now be basically impossible to fight "fair" against, meaning that you have a choice between being bored through 90% of most dungeons, or exploiting glitches to survive the bosses, and being bored the rest of the time.
I ran into a little of this, but once you are familiar with the game mechanics you can limit your progression without too much artificial skill grinding.

Yeah, there's room for improvement, here.
Yeah, to bad Bioware got devoured by EA, and produced the Dragon Age series =/ Dragon Age one was 'ok' though, ok enough for one play through, have not played 2 or any of the others yet.

I'd also point out that basically everything that was done between Oblivion and Fallout 3 and Skyrim was basically "just try to add as much of the fixes that modders did to Oblivion into the vanilla game as possible."  In fact, remember Oscuro's Oblivion Overhaul?  Yeah, after that, they just plain hired Oscuro to work for Bethesda.  That's not really a complaint, if they can't do anything better, that's at least something, but one would think that having at their disposal total artistic control would have led to something better than the utter placeholder that was, for example, the marriage system.  But oh no, they just HAD to release on the utterly arbitrary 11-11-11 release date instead of actually shipping a finished game.
Haha, absolutely right here, its irritating, but even Lord British's early titles were polished, but once money becomes the focus instead of Art you get crap like this.

Money is not the primary motivation for great art, hence another reason why copywright is flawed today (it may not have been in the 1800's). It was all about the distribution of goods because printing presses and great works of art "were" such a great investment. Now its easy to distribute anything (3D printers, Computer Aided Design, YO!, the internet, cheep mass storage...). So I welcome the rise of indie titles and a New Age of distribution and compensation. But art itself is motivated by far more then the mentality of "making a living". Not to say that before Intellectual Property... people did not make a great living off of art... They sure as hell did producing silks, perfumes, etc... and all kinds of "physical goods" for profit. All things that "could" be easily copied at the time, but weren't because it took great skill to learn to produce them, before the industrial age... Look at Victorian age furniture, hell even peasants probably had better bedroom furniture before designs became patented and mass produced in factories (crappy Ikia shit anyone?). This also had some to do with more ready access to good materials and free time or the necessity to create ones own stuff, but it is not the case in today's 'modern' economy.

Anyway, there is plenty free-ly and legally available stuff still, everything from software to furniture, to whole entire house plans, to the software you need to make more software (Linux, SDL). And there is nothing wrong with reinventing the wheel.

So ya if you compare Skyrim to all that it makes your eyes bleed =P But it "was" and still is ok, and I would recommend it to anyone who can grab it for the $15 used that it is worth =)
« Last Edit: April 13, 2012, 11:34:25 am by runlvlzero »
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NW_Kohaku

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Re: Why one would give their money to the toad, rather than Sony
« Reply #61 on: April 13, 2012, 11:34:05 am »

Really?  My experience was the complete opposite.  I found magic to be hilariously overpowered in Skyrim.  Once you get the Stagger perk for destruction, then you can easily beat anyone in the game with 2nd level spells; usually without ever being touched.  If you get bored of fighting someone, just become ethereal and Lightning Storm them into dust.  Nothing in the game seems more overpowered than lighting storming an ancient dragon (what should be the hardest enemy in the game) for 10 seconds and watching it literally dissolve into a pile of dust at your feet!

Not that the "Me smash puny dragon with giant hammer!" approach was particularly difficult either, but at least you're not going to brush aside the most powerful enemies in the game as if they were a gnat.

Oh so very, very many arguments on the Skyrim forums about this very subject...

The problem is that destruction magic is no longer scalable, so once you hit level 40+, there are no new spells for you to acquire.  Your damage hardly goes up in the last few tiers of destruction magic spells, but mana consumption increases geometrically.  Plus, most of the really interesting spells they added, like the rune traps, have no scaling or tiers - they are good for the very narrow sliver of the game when you can afford to actually cast them, and monsters haven't completely outpaced the 50 damage they can deal. 

ALL of that could have been avoided if you just let players keep their ability to customize spells, which is how it worked previously, or else to put in place a new system where your magic scaled with you, just like everything else

Even something as simple as multiplying magic damage by your maximum mana would have been an elegant solution, since it would mean that the more you put your level-ups into mana instead of health, the more damage your magic would deal, and your magic power would scale to your level the way that enemies did. 

Meanwhile, the top-level summoning spell, for example, actually scales to your level, so just sneaking and summoning with that illusion perk that lets you cast silently is basically invincibility.  Same with melee, especially if you forge your own equipment.
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NW_Kohaku

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Re: Why one would give their money to the toad, rather than Sony
« Reply #62 on: April 13, 2012, 11:53:44 am »

Congratulations on getting married to a random personalityless NPC.  Enjoy your three lines of totally generic spouse text repeated forever and daily pie.
I don't think it will be possible to simulate a meaningful romantic relationship in virtual space for a long time without allot of "meta-gaming". This was a sales gimmick to try and compete with the Mass Effect and Dragon age series, not a core mechanic. I completely ignored it and it didn't effect my experience what-so-ever.

No, I believe it was something more cynical than that. 

They simply didn't have time to make a real mechanic out of it, just like they didn't bother to make any of the other characters memorable.  They had promised it earlier, so they had to put it in, but they basically just considered it too low of a priority to ever bother actually doing anything with it other than the most perfunctory of inclusion.  The fact that you can get married to that one merchant woman in Whiterun who will still sell you a wedding ring during that "The Hangover" quest because she won't notice anything strange about you getting married to another person is just one example of how they simply stapled the mechanic on for the sheer purpose of saying it was there.  (As was the whole mechanic of "wear necklace - instant marriage!".  As was the whole "the last game's diplomacy mechanic sucked, so now, we just won't have one at all!"  Give a farmer vegetables you just picked from his field for 2 septims?  That's worth just as much to getting "friends" status as saving his daughter from bandits in a quest!)

Yay for the new "endless quests" I can get from the thieves guild that involves breaking into the shack of a peasant who apparently either made their furniture themselves when they were drunk or stole it from the "failures" heap of a real carpenter, and have nothing more to their name than some rags for clothing, wooden spoons, and a single loaf of bread, but somehow suddenly have golden candelabras for you to steal.  They will be completely unguarded and provide absolutely zero challenge for you even if you don't bother stealthing at all.
They could have done better with these, but they are not really the main focus of the game. Those are just added extra's. In fact I only did two random side quests for the thieves guild. One was comparable, but not that bad, the other made sense. It's not much worse then some of the things even in Dwarf Fortress itself. The main quest for the thieves guild was compelling enough. The cities main quest in Markarth was very compelling too and fit in quite well the side quests around that area. I haven't played a game yet were "randomly generated quests" were any better or worse really.

But this was one of the main selling points they were trying to advertise, and it was obviously something they could have done much better with. 

It was either A- A design failure because they wanted to go procedural, but couldn't understand how to, so they just kept going with having a linear quest system in all the guilds, but cut out half the linear story so that two quests into the Fighter's Guild, you're already part of the "inner circle" of the guild. 

Or B- Something that was meant to be much better, but they just didn't bother making it a priority at all, so they just hoped that modders would finish their work for them.

Look at Victorian age furniture, hell even peasants probably had better bedroom furniture before designs became patented and mass produced in factories (crappy Ikia shit anyone?). This also had some to do with more ready access to good materials and free time or the necessity to create ones own stuff, but it is not the case in today's 'modern' economy.

Whoo!  Smash those looms!  Bring back artisanship!
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Chagen46

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Re: Why one would give their money to the toad, rather than Sony
« Reply #63 on: April 13, 2012, 12:06:01 pm »

Hm. I own a PS3, X360, and PS2, and I find myself playing them as often as I play DF.

I can't really do much PC gaming because my comp is a laptop designed mostly for "normal computer users". I can't ran anything more advanced than GTA: San Andreas on it and expect a good framerate. I'm needling my parents for a gaming PC, but that's gonna be a while because of cost.

I rarely buy games for my consoles, since I mostly like racers, which are rather rare compared to COD-clones.

-reading the past few posts-

Huh, Skyrim? Eh, it was fun after a while, but DF is so much more complex.
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runlvlzero

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Re: Why one would give their money to the toad, rather than Sony
« Reply #64 on: April 13, 2012, 12:23:13 pm »

*(Hurray for crazy nested quotes)*
Congratulations on getting married to a random personalityless NPC.  Enjoy your three lines of totally generic spouse text repeated forever and daily pie.
I don't think it will be possible to simulate a meaningful romantic relationship in virtual space for a long time without allot of "meta-gaming". This was a sales gimmick to try and compete with the Mass Effect and Dragon age series, not a core mechanic. I completely ignored it and it didn't effect my experience what-so-ever.
No, I believe it was something more cynical than that. 

They simply didn't have time to make a real mechanic out of it, just like they didn't bother to make any of the other characters memorable.  They had promised it earlier, so they had to put it in, but they basically just considered it too low of a priority to ever bother actually doing anything with it other than the most perfunctory of inclusion.  The fact that you can get married to that one merchant woman in Whiterun who will still sell you a wedding ring during that "The Hangover" quest because she won't notice anything strange about you getting married to another person is just one example of how they simply stapled the mechanic on for the sheer purpose of saying it was there.  (As was the whole mechanic of "wear necklace - instant marriage!".  As was the whole "the last game's diplomacy mechanic sucked, so now, we just won't have one at all!"  Give a farmer vegetables you just picked from his field for 2 septims?  That's worth just as much to getting "friends" status as saving his daughter from bandits in a quest!)
They really biffed this big time, but to most people it was a sales gimmick like... heated XXL cup holders. Nothing critical to the design of the whole thing. Even then I agree they didn't even succeed at making much of a gimmick out of it. I'm glad they failed because I can't imagine what they would have managed to create if they tried to make real game play out of it lol...

It was either A- A design failure because they wanted to go procedural, but couldn't understand how to, so they just kept going with having a linear quest system in all the guilds, but cut out half the linear story so that two quests into the Fighter's Guild, you're already part of the "inner circle" of the guild.
Agreed they have yet to succeed in making any actual working procedural game play (which they promised since oblivion...), they would have been much better off to hand craft all the quests and dungeons. I don't think their AI engine "Radiant" is up to the task or will be for quite some time.

Their art team is not that fantastic either, they really need to hire some good 3d Modelers and texture artists. Not to mention the entire game suffered from horrid lighting yet again... And Skyrim had the worst clipping issues of any production game (glaring issues from the very first intro on...). But it was a little better then Fallout 3+ and Oblivion in the art department, but not by much, just a hairs breadth.

Whoo!  Smash those looms!  Bring back artisanship!

Lol thanks for the good laugh =)
« Last Edit: April 13, 2012, 12:30:04 pm by runlvlzero »
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runlvlzero

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doublepost...
« Reply #65 on: April 13, 2012, 12:25:15 pm »

doublepost...
« Last Edit: April 13, 2012, 12:31:49 pm by runlvlzero »
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Shinotsa

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Re: Why one would give their money to the toad, rather than Sony
« Reply #66 on: April 13, 2012, 12:26:16 pm »

I think the big rage is that Skyrim, much like Oblivion before it, was a big let down because it was SUPPOSED to be complex. Does anyone remember the system of persistent entities with their own lives, needs, and wants that was supposed to be in Oblivion? Yeah, I also remember the claims that Skyrim would be unbeatable due to the near-infinite number of quests from this randomly generated system. I also remember claims of proper economies and other lofty goals early in development. They promised complexity and didn't deliver and that is the main gripe I have.

I still break out my PS2 to play Ace Combat 5 now and again, and I really miss being able to share my games with friends. If I want my brother to play my xbox copy of Battlefield 3, he has to pay twenty bucks to play the multipayer. If anyone here has played Battlefield 3, the multiplayer is really the only worthwhile part of the game. Dying 20 times before you progress on the hardest difficulty level because you're forced to run through an area with no cover is simply not fun.

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runlvlzero

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triplepost
« Reply #67 on: April 13, 2012, 12:26:20 pm »

triplepost wow- how did that happen? 504 Gateway error spam...
« Last Edit: April 13, 2012, 12:34:05 pm by runlvlzero »
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Shinotsa

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Re: Why one would give their money to the toad, rather than Sony
« Reply #68 on: April 13, 2012, 12:27:07 pm »

Edit:Woooooah forum you so crazy
« Last Edit: April 13, 2012, 12:30:48 pm by Shinotsa »
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runlvlzero

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Re: Why one would give their money to the toad, rather than Sony
« Reply #69 on: April 13, 2012, 12:36:19 pm »

Lol glad I was not the only one hahaha. Yah, "Radiant" AI B.S. I think someone at Bethesda had some idea of marketing it like Carmack did the quake engines...
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NW_Kohaku

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Re: Why one would give their money to the toad, rather than Sony
« Reply #70 on: April 13, 2012, 12:59:38 pm »

They really biffed this big time, but to most people it was a sales gimmick like... heated XXL cup holders. Nothing critical to the design of the whole thing. Even then I agree they didn't even succeed at making much of a gimmick out of it. I'm glad they failed because I can't imagine what they would have managed to create if they tried to make real game play out of it lol...

Well, to go back to Fallout: New Vegas, that was made by Obsidian, and the thing is, Bethesda is good at making open worlds (and then shipping half-finished so it's a buggy mess), but crap at writing storylines or making characters.  Obsidian is good at making characters which can fit into a non-linear narrative, like in Alpha Protocol.  If they just teamed up on some of these games, farming out the interactions with NPCs to Obsidian, they might be able to make a really great out-of-the-box game. 

The thing they really needed to do to give the marriage system any meaning whatsoever was to start off by actually making the marriage candidates in some ways unique characters.  When I play a game like Harvest Moon, interaction with the marriage candidates is as dull and straightforward as hearing the same dialogue lines every day and shoving a radish in the marriage candidate's face for more relationship points, but they still managed to make the characters seem more unique than Bethesda did.  I mean, there's tomboyish animal-loving girl, then there's traditional feminine farming girl, then there's trendy bohemian girl, then there's shy bookworm girl, spoiled rich girl, etc. etc. 

Meanwhile, compare Bethesda characters that aren't written by Michael Kirkbride, and you're basically comparing template characters with personalities formed by placeholders for the real characterization that was meant to go in later.  Everyone looks, acts, and reacts the same, basically. 

Anyway, the economy stuff is where I hold out hope for modding.  I actually was intending to mod quite a bit of that stuff into the game, but wound up getting sucked back into DF before the construction kit came out. 
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Personally, I like [DF] because after climbing the damned learning cliff, I'm too elitist to consider not liking it.
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runlvlzero

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Re: Why one would give their money to the toad, rather than Sony
« Reply #71 on: April 13, 2012, 01:23:41 pm »

They really biffed this big time, but to most people it was a sales gimmick like... heated XXL cup holders. Nothing critical to the design of the whole thing. Even then I agree they didn't even succeed at making much of a gimmick out of it. I'm glad they failed because I can't imagine what they would have managed to create if they tried to make real game play out of it lol...

Well, to go back to Fallout: New Vegas, that was made by Obsidian, and the thing is, Bethesda is good at making open worlds (and then shipping half-finished so it's a buggy mess), but crap at writing storylines or making characters.  Obsidian is good at making characters which can fit into a non-linear narrative, like in Alpha Protocol.  If they just teamed up on some of these games, farming out the interactions with NPCs to Obsidian, they might be able to make a really great out-of-the-box game. 

The thing they really needed to do to give the marriage system any meaning whatsoever was to start off by actually making the marriage candidates in some ways unique characters.  When I play a game like Harvest Moon, interaction with the marriage candidates is as dull and straightforward as hearing the same dialogue lines every day and shoving a radish in the marriage candidate's face for more relationship points, but they still managed to make the characters seem more unique than Bethesda did.  I mean, there's tomboyish animal-loving girl, then there's traditional feminine farming girl, then there's trendy bohemian girl, then there's shy bookworm girl, spoiled rich girl, etc. etc. 

Meanwhile, compare Bethesda characters that aren't written by Michael Kirkbride, and you're basically comparing template characters with personalities formed by placeholders for the real characterization that was meant to go in later.  Everyone looks, acts, and reacts the same, basically. 

Anyway, the economy stuff is where I hold out hope for modding.  I actually was intending to mod quite a bit of that stuff into the game, but wound up getting sucked back into DF before the construction kit came out.

Thanks for pointing that out, I didn't realise New Vegas was a different company.

A game with some cool economy features is the X series http://www.egosoft.com/games/x3/info_en.php. I think you can beat X3 purely economically (not firing a shot), and there's definitely mods for it.. But even then if your serious about economy simulations your probably better off with one of the early Civ games, free Civ, Pax Imperia, or Aurora (the free game that's like a x4 RTS). Although the X series has real in game trading simulation, between small ships, and big fleets and stations. If you want real economy simulation, you can't beat Eve Online, it even has the corruption that real markets have lol.

I honestly didn't go into Skyrim expecting any economy what-so-ever. Also the Bethseda games are riddled with the loot everything syndrome and carry an inventory of 1000 items. I spend more time in all those games looting then doing anything meaningful other then traveling.
« Last Edit: April 13, 2012, 01:26:53 pm by runlvlzero »
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Azated

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Re: Why one would give their money to the toad, rather than Sony
« Reply #72 on: April 13, 2012, 01:57:48 pm »

Forgive me if this has been posted already, but I just felt like added my thoughts.

First of all, the only reason I've ever used the playstation series is because my brother had one. I brought a PS2, then a PS3, which I haven't touched in three years. It's got enough of a dust layer to be considered a small moon.

Even if there were games worth playing, I doubt I'd bother buying them. I wouldn't have the customization that a PC game would give. This leads me to the obligatory skyrim rage.

It's been consolised. To the max. The minute I installed it, I felt like I should be using a console controller. The menus, user interface and general controls are clunky, unintuitive, and sometimes don't even work.

It looked exactly the same as oblivion, and I couldn't help but notice the Morrowind theme music. Just my personal opinion here, but I felt like they were trying to make us think of Morrowind to make it feel like a better game.

There's nothing I hate more than a good franchise killing itself because the consoles sell better. Sure, I can understand adapting to the console, but not making a PC franchise into a console game and then badly porting it back to PC.

That's like making a series about soup, creating four spoons, then when people decide they like steak better, making a knife and curving the blade to make it vaguely spoon-like.
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ZachUSAman

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Re: Why one would give their money to the toad, rather than Sony
« Reply #73 on: April 13, 2012, 05:19:38 pm »

ALL RUMORS ABOUT FUTURE CONSOLES ARE CRAP
IGNORE THEM

seriously, these are just sites trying to get hits... happens everytime a "new" console comes out.
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