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Author Topic: How about a peaceful co-existence in the community?  (Read 6095 times)

Patchouli

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Re: How about a peaceful co-existence in the community?
« Reply #30 on: April 06, 2012, 04:31:33 am »

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Johuotar

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Re: How about a peaceful co-existence in the community?
« Reply #31 on: April 06, 2012, 05:11:20 am »

So yeah, the danger room OP got banned for ignoring warnings about trolling and the thread got autolocked I think. Not sure how it works. But yeah, I think that we could have had cool danger room thread had the OP not been troll and such. I really wanted to find out what others think of danger rooms.
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Sonlirain

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Re: How about a peaceful co-existence in the community?
« Reply #32 on: April 06, 2012, 06:47:43 am »

Danger room abuse would be a problem if DF was multiplayer but whining about people abusing bugs in a single player game?
Meh...
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kaijyuu

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Re: How about a peaceful co-existence in the community?
« Reply #33 on: April 06, 2012, 07:44:11 am »

Eh, it's not completely irrational. Just 1 non-sequitor is needed.


Think about a single player game with cheats. Beat it the normal way, and you have a lot of fun, right? But if you activate the cheats to breeze through it, it's less entertaining.


The fallacious logic being applied is thus:

1) This exploit/cheat/whatever makes the game less fun for me.
2) Other people are using it.
Conclusion) Other people are having less fun than they could be.

They think the way they enjoy the game most is how everyone can enjoy the game most. The non-sequitor is assuming fun is objective, not subjective. "The reason I like something is the only good reason to like it" is a common misconception among fans of pretty much anything. Assuming the dude who started that topic wasn't trolling and was just a jerk, he didn't realize that what reduced enjoyment for him did not necessarily reduce enjoyment for others, nor would he listen when others told him so.
« Last Edit: April 06, 2012, 07:47:09 am by kaijyuu »
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Johuotar

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Re: How about a peaceful co-existence in the community?
« Reply #34 on: April 06, 2012, 03:40:17 pm »

-snip-

Yeah, that pretty much nailed what's wrong in most danger room threads. Gotta say it's really easy to passionate about minor stuff like that. Someting I think that helps is that you dont post response immediately but take time to think and calm down.
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daveralph1234

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Re: How about a peaceful co-existence in the community?
« Reply #35 on: April 06, 2012, 07:48:49 pm »

While we all have different preferences and game styles, I think the reason bay12 remains generally orderly and harmonious is because we simply are all equally insane deranged reasonable. Dwarf Fortress is obviously a game that takes significant amounts of patience, perseverance, logical reasoning and foresight to actually get to a point at which it becomes Fun or interesting. We know that our scarily bad graphics and interface scare people away, but think about the types of people they tend to be, or more, the type of people that aren't and do stick with the game, trying to understand it. That's us.
   Minecraft makes a good example of this, it is (relatively) similar in concept to DF, but is much easier to play. Yes, it is immensely popular, but look at the community, it's mostly complete chaos and while there are pockets of civility, they are constantly targeted by destructive groups.
    The fact that DF has an almost impenetrable learning cliff actually helps protect the game. All these disruptive people and trouble makers cannot climb it, and run away. When faced with this learning cliff, most run away, others futilely attempt to run at it, and bounce off. Only we true dwarves, bay12'ers, see to instead dig a tunnel through it and emerge the other side, covered in stone, debris and the blood of those who would not have made it so far.

I'm trying not to seem too egotistical here, but for the most part this probably is true. Not to say we're any better than the rest of the internet (infact the average sanity and value for human dwarven life here is concerningly low), we do tend to be the more maniacal reasonable types.

Sorry if I offended anyone by calling them "reasonable", I know many of you would probably not see yourselves that way and it is probably not the correct word, I respect your self acclaimed (and duely earned) insanity.
« Last Edit: April 06, 2012, 07:51:11 pm by daveralph1234 »
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Flying Dice

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Re: How about a peaceful co-existence in the community?
« Reply #36 on: April 06, 2012, 10:07:40 pm »

-snip-

Yeah, that pretty much nailed what's wrong in most danger room threads. Gotta say it's really easy to passionate about minor stuff like that. Someting I think that helps is that you dont post response immediately but take time to think and calm down.

Eh, the problem with them that I always notice cropping up is that the "OMG Danger rooms are exploit nobody should be allowed to use them" crowd doesn't seem to understand the concept of player freedom, and on a larger extent, personal freedom. The rule of thumb should always be that if something doesn't harm other people, people shouldn't be prevented from doing it.

Well, that and the descent into ad hominem attacks whenever someone calls people on it. I'm sort of at the point where I'd like to move for a petition to ban dangerroom threads in the same way that MLP discussion threads were banned in GD. Yeah, it'd be nice if we could have a danger room thread that doesn't end up full of trolling and logical fallacies within the first five pages, but I have yet to see it happen, and they just seem to make the stupidity and divisiveness positively bleed out of the walls for no real purpose.

Ed: After all, how long have these threads been cropping up? Since 2010, I think? We've yet to see one that didn't end badly, as far as I can remember.
« Last Edit: April 06, 2012, 10:10:18 pm by Flying Dice »
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G-Flex

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Re: How about a peaceful co-existence in the community?
« Reply #37 on: April 06, 2012, 10:09:41 pm »

Eh, the problem with them that I always notice cropping up is that the "OMG Danger rooms are exploit nobody should be allowed to use them" crowd doesn't seem to understand the concept of player freedom, and on a larger extent, personal freedom. The rule of thumb should always be that if something doesn't harm other people, people shouldn't be prevented from doing it.

You are completely dismissing the possibility that "danger rooms" and other exploits are symptomatic of bad, buggy, or problematic game design/implementation, and that this is why some people have a problem with them.

Yes, it's possible to want things like "danger rooms" and "quantum stockpiles" fixed even if you're not someone who uses them personally. And yes, this view can actually be rational. There is no non sequitur necessary to believe this.
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Flying Dice

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Re: How about a peaceful co-existence in the community?
« Reply #38 on: April 06, 2012, 10:13:52 pm »

Eh, the problem with them that I always notice cropping up is that the "OMG Danger rooms are exploit nobody should be allowed to use them" crowd doesn't seem to understand the concept of player freedom, and on a larger extent, personal freedom. The rule of thumb should always be that if something doesn't harm other people, people shouldn't be prevented from doing it.

You are completely dismissing the possibility that "danger rooms" and other exploits are symptomatic of bad, buggy, or problematic game design/implementation, and that this is why some people have a problem with them.

Yes, it's possible to want things like "danger rooms" and "quantum stockpiles" fixed even if you're not someone who uses them personally. And yes, this view can actually be rational. There is no non sequitur necessary to believe this.

If someone made that argument to me, I would agree. I don't have anything against fixing flawed or broken mechanics. But all I ever see are people saying that danger room users are lazy or unwilling to play the game "properly", and that gets on my nerves, for fairly obvious reasons. Again, I wouldn't have anything against a rational argument on the merits of the things, or on whether or not they should be in the game, but when people go for the moralistic stance time and again...

But anyhow, I would like to avoid turning this into another debate on the same thing, so apart from reading whatever response you make (if any), I'm not going to indulge in any further discussion of it.
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Alkhemia

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Re: How about a peaceful co-existence in the community?
« Reply #39 on: April 06, 2012, 10:53:03 pm »

Well fixing quantum stockpiles would be a huge under taking that would take year by how much he have to rewrite  :P

But yeah this forums is the best, I been here since December 2010 and people are always friendly.
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Jelle

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Re: How about a peaceful co-existence in the community?
« Reply #40 on: April 07, 2012, 03:13:00 am »

If you ask me it's pretty moot to point out danger rooms as an exploit when you have the game raws available to modify to alter gameplay far more drasticly.

But this is going a bit off topic! So let's see erm something on topic...
I could see it as reasonable to want to convince someone a feature that trivializes part of the game shouldn't be used.
A lot of players (I speak in general, not just DF) will take the easy way to beat a game if it presents itself, no matter what. Some just can't help themselves to min max and optimize when playing a game, treating it as a challenge to beat as effeciently possible.
But then DF is a sandbox game, you can alter gameplay to wichever way pleases you. Yeah in my opinion gaming the system and taking the most effecient and easiest way to beat a game (danger rooms for example) is a bit lame especially because you have the freedom to play as ever you want (so there arguably is no optimal). You won't see me doing it, but I can see how for others that's the type of gameplay they are looking for.
So when I consider the sandbox playstyle I just don't really care how others chose to play their game, and the reasons behind it. It doesn't affect one's gameplay in any way unless you're doing some sort of multiplayer.
If the game entertains both on either side of the argument, isn't that a great thing? If you could convince someone to change their play style and they end up having more fun that way all the better, but really aggrevating about it does no one a service.

Just my 2 cents on it.
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McFlow

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Re: How about a peaceful co-existence in the community?
« Reply #41 on: April 07, 2012, 12:08:04 pm »

Posting to show support for OP, tolerance and the constructive mentality of bay12.
Hmm, I can't help thinking that the mentality is linked to DF. I.e. formus for FPS-games may carry a (different kind of) aggression compared to bay12, where we (no matter the play mode) have to work hard to make things work in DF. :-)

Building on this, I would say because dwarf fortress is so complex and has so many possibilities, the nature of the game encourages overseers to work together on !!SCIENCE!!. Without collaboration in !!SCIENCE!!, imagine where we would have been.
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Melagius

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Re: How about a peaceful co-existence in the community?
« Reply #42 on: April 07, 2012, 04:37:05 pm »

It's only natural, a large percentage of DF players are stereotypical "angry white teenagers who think they know everything"
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Furtuka

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Re: How about a peaceful co-existence in the community?
« Reply #43 on: April 07, 2012, 04:48:25 pm »

Uh what? I wouldn't say a large percentage at all...
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Flying Dice

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Re: How about a peaceful co-existence in the community?
« Reply #44 on: April 07, 2012, 09:10:07 pm »

And all people who use danger rooms are lazy and don't want a real challenge! Whee, stereotypes are fun!
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